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Forum Home > Non-Seiko General Discussion Area - Contemporary Chrono's > Citizen Cal. 35xx - the competition's answer to the 7Axx

Seiko7A38
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Although I've never succumbed to actually buying one, I will admit to having the odd dalliance with Citizen's Cal. 35xx chronographs.


From memory, I first encountered them on Michael Rothe's old but well-rearched website: http://www.sigma957.org/watches.html

Love this bit: These pages have been carelessly thrown together since 2002 by Michael Rothe




Michael posted this on the old Network54 SCWF: http://www.seiko-divers.info/scwf/index.php?mod=103&action=0&id=1092084884

My little group of elder citizens - Michael Rothe on Aug 09, 2004, 01:54 PM

The left one is from the same family, but lost her maiden name...

3 x cal.3510 12-jewel 12hour quartz chrono with alarm, timer and date, and a cal.3530 without date


Being far too absorbed collecting Seiko 7A38's, I didn't think a lot more about them until I stumbled across this FS advert on SCWF:

http://www.thewatchsite.com/8-seiko-citizen-trading-post/2815.html

FS: Rare 1985 Citizen 12-Jewel Aviator's Chronograph Timer - $119 Shipped

This 12-jewel quartz movement caliber 3530 was Citizen's competition for the Seiko 7A28/38. It has some unique features. When you pull the crown out to set the time, the second hand automatically advances to zero. The hand setting is electronic. They can be turned either direction in increments, or if you turn the crown quickly, they automatically turn until stopped. The second hand is used as both the chrono sec hand as well as the regular timekeeping sec hand. The left pusher cycles between chrono and time modes. The sec hand automatically advances to zero when you select chrono mode, and it returns to the current seconds when you change back to time mode. It also has a countdown timer with alarm.

 

Alarm, 12-hour 1/50 sec chrono, timer, tachymeter, electronic hand setting, flyback (upper left pusher will reset the chrono while running). All stainless steel with matte finish. Original full-length bracelet. Made in Japan.

Near mint/97%. Fully functional and keeps time. Alarm works nicely. Sometimes when using the chrono, the start pusher needs to be pressed more than once to start it.

 

$119 SHIPPED (US). Payment via PayPal. [email protected] (remove "NOSPAM" from address).




It was probably the seller's statement: This 12-jewel quartz movement caliber 3530 was Citizen's competition for the Seiko 7A28/38 ....

which first drew my interest, and intrigued me. I kept going back and looking longingly at the FS advert, but deliberated for too long ....

Derek (a.k.a. 'LuvWatch') bought it. :mad:

Thing is, our Derek, bless him ;) is what I jokingly call a serial flipper - he has a suitable response up his sleeve. :P

True to form, barely a month after he'd bought it, he listed it on eBay, in June 2010:




Although they were smaller, the watch appeared even more enticing in Derek's listing photos. Believe it or not, I actually won that eBay auction - but then reneged on the deal. I can't remember exactly why now. It may have been that another Seiko 7A38 had come up on eBay, and I was 'overspent' (on watches) that month, but Derek took it in good grace and sold it to the losing bidder. I do remember I'd convinced myself that I couldn't live without a date (or day/date), and despite lacking these, the watch's dial still looked far too busy. :/


That watch was a Cal. 3530. Naturally, in response to Seiko's 7A28 / 7A38, Citizen did produce a date version - the Cal. 3510 / 3560.

I've been looking for one for a while. Not actively seeking, but just browsing occasionally. ;)


If you google images on Citizen 3510, there was certainly a vast choice of case styles available, comparable to Seiko's 7Axx range -

though many were two-tone and in dubious taste IMO. Most have a date window in the 6 o'clock subdial, but some have it at 4 o'clock.

Here's one such:




In contrast, one of the nicest I've seen was not actually a Citizen Cal. 3510, but a Dugena Cal. 3560, found by Axel Fessler ('Axel66'):

http://www.network54.com/Forum/642233/thread/1241896203/1241910430/Interesting+find+%28Dugena+with+Miyota+inside%29.




To quote Axel from that thread:

I went for it, because I saw similar dials on older (I guess they are from the early '90s) Citizen quartz chronos.

 

And yes, there is the 3560 inside:




Again his words, not mine:

Not as nice as the Seiko 7Axx series, but not too bad for quartz chrono either.

I was first shocked as I thought it was not working. This little second over the "6" wouldn't move! But than I found out it is not a small second, it is the minute counter. The central second serves both functions, the normal second hand and the stop second, you can toggle between the modes with the pusher at "8" - cool isn't it.

But still more to discover! This funny subdial on the upper right. I could figure out that the inner ring measures the time in 2/100s. 

I didn't have a clue about the outer circle until I found an manual online:

http://www.citizenwatch-global.com/support/simple_pdf/3531.pdf

So other cool functions are second zero reset when setting the time.

A simple counter up to 50 and a timer (count down) function up to 50s ....


So, it would appear - as shown by Michael's and Axel's earlier discoveries - Columbus and Dugena ....

(as with Seiko's 7Axx) there are other brands, using the same Miyota movements, to consider besides Citizen's own Cal. 35xx offerings.

March 9, 2012 at 12:14 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

I wrote in a thread on the UK RLT watch forum in November last year:

 

I think if I was to ever actually buy myself a Citizen Cal. 35xx, it would probably be a 3510 or a 3560.

Especially the latter, because with the date window in the 6 o'clock subdial ....

It's as close as Citizen came to copying Seiko's iconic 7A38 design / layout.

The Cal. 3530/3531 were effectively Citizen's answer to the (non-date) 7A28.


There were quite a few nice designs available in Cal. 3560 .... even a few 'Divers':




Knowing a little more about them now, I'd probably strike the Cal. 3510 (with the alarm) altogether and go for Cal. 3560.

Indeed, with its 3-pusher layout, and crown at 4 o'clock (as opposed to 8 o'clock), it's as close as Citizen got to the 7A38.


There was one on eBay in Germany, again back in November 2011, which I quite fancied: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110770525907


Citizen Quartz Analog Chronograph Caliber 3560 NP 199




But I just couldn't bring myself to make that opening bid of 45 Euros - and nobody else did either. :(


Around that time, having just bought a Junghans High Tech Chrono (7A38 clone) I was browsing eBay Germany rather more and

in my searches on Junghans I came across this (pretty poor listing photos), but obviously powered by a Citizen / Miyota Cal 3510:




More recently I've been looking at Dugena chronographs powered by Cal. 3560's. Some of them look very Seiko 7A38-esque.

This one - a head only; no bracelet, with a badly scratched crystal and case-back was on eBay Germany in February this year:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/220947942442

Dugena Quarz Chronograph, 84338042, aus den 90igern,Bicolor, Gebraucht



Opening bid price 30 Euros and no takers. If that had been a Seiko 7A38 in a similar condition, there would have been a few bids.


Do you ever kick yourself for passing on something. I do sometimes. 

Same watch-case (again) as Axel's all stainless version, but two-tone:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140712554693

DUGENA Chronograph Herren Armbanduhr


Sold for a mere 29.40 Euros (less than £25) earlier this week. After adding it to my eBay watching page why didn't I bid on it ? 

March 9, 2012 at 1:43 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

Threads on other forums with information and photos of Citizen Cal. 35xx


http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php?topic=14472.0 - Citizen 3510 diver chrono vintage NOS .... but no run help ! (no help !)

http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php?topic=29241.0 - Citizen's response to Seiko 7A28/38/48 quartz chronograph watches*

http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=70688 - Citizen Titanium Cal. 3531 (Achim's RLT thread with photos of his)

http://uhrforum.de/citizen-noblia-chronograph-3570-y53750-sa-t40045 - CITIZEN Noblia Chronograph 3570-Y53750 SA (Ugh !!)

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?63095-help-with-citizen-3570-movement-(pics) Help with Citizen 3570 movement (pics)


*That recent SCWF thread includes a post from Michael Rothe (an acknowedged expert on the caliber), with the definitive statement:

 

The 3510 had alarm and date,

the 3530 had alarm, but no date,

the 3560 had date, but no alarm,

and the 3570 had a moon phase display, but no date and no alarm.

March 9, 2012 at 2:25 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

Seems as if it wasn't only German watch manufacturers Dugena and Junghans who were using Citizen / Miyota Cal. 35xx movements.


I've just been running a couple of searches on eBay - on Pryngeps, an Italian purveyor of dressy quartz chronographs, and found this:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270930197942

PRYNGEPS CRONOGRAFO CHRONO WATCH


 

PRYNGEPS CRONOGRAPH. WATER RESISTANT 3ATM. ALARM

FERMO DA TEMPO. MOLTO BELLO. COME DA FOTO. GRAZIE


Awful Cartier Pasha styled watch case, but from the dial / sub-dial / date / pusher layout, clearly based on a Cal. 3510.

Grab yourself a bargain. Opening bid price 15 Euros; no bids placed so far, and 30 minutes left  to run. I'll think I'll pass. :D


Yet another - with a Camel Trophy brand logo. Not sure who the manufacturer may have been, but it's clearly also using Cal. 3510.



More of the same model here: http://www.pmwf.com/Watches/CAMEL%20TROPHY%20Table.htm (second row)




Note the photo credit in the last image :lol: .... and also that the case-back of the watch is actually marked 3S10, rather than 3510.

Which is correct, because apparently the movement was sold marked as both 3S10 and 3510, depending upon the customer.


Breitling even used the 'humble' Miyota Cal. 3S10 in their Navitimer Jupiter Pilot quartz chronograph:



The movement, known as the Breitling caliber 59, is the Japanese Miyota 3S10 which measures elapsed time to 1/50th sec.

Its alarm function is controlled by pulling/pushing the button at 3 o'clock.



More info on WUS: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f39/breitling-jupiter-jupiter-pilot-brief-history-aid-identification-91.html (scroll down)


March 14, 2012 at 4:14 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

I think we can assume these Miyota Cal. 35xx's were universally used - ubiquitous even. :D

From the sublime (Breitling) to the mildly ridiculous cheaper extreme, other end of the market .....

I was having a nose through another Seiko collector's eBay feedback (as you do  to suss the competition) this evening:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120859374754

Mens Accurist chronograph watch



Sold on the 15th February for a mere £8.88 (not working). Obviously powered by another Miyota Cal. 3560 movement.


So that's Accurist, Breitling, Camel Trophy (Citizen and Columbus), Dugena .... :D


March 17, 2012 at 9:33 PM Flag Quote & Reply

7ARCool
Member
Posts: 168

Paul, would I be correct in saying Citizen is part of the Seiko group of companies?

I must say some of the watches on this page are very eyecatching . 8)

March 17, 2012 at 9:43 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

No you would be very wrong - and could be shot for less, Chris ! :lol: They are direct competitors.


See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seiko

and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Watch


The Citizen / Miyota Cal. 35xx was Citizen's response to the success of Seiko's Cal. 7Axx range.

March 17, 2012 at 9:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply

7ARCool
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Posts: 168

Another Dugena on eBay Germany: http://www.ebay.de/itm/320867990433



March 17, 2012 at 10:07 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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7ARCool at March 17, 2012 at 10:07 PM

Another Dugena on eBay Germany: http://www.ebay.de/itm/320867990433

And yet another Dugena, again based on the Citizen / Miyota Cal. 3510: http://www.ebay.de/itm/320871241588


DUGENA ALARM CHRONOGRAPH DATUM RARITÄT 100m ATM




Of the non-Citizen branded Cal. 35xx's, they appear to be, by far, the most common on eBay Germany.

More often than not, they're two-tone finish and sometimes their 80's styling is in rather questionable taste, as per the above example.

March 22, 2012 at 4:03 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Arpie
Member
Posts: 202

And here is a Citizen 3510: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280849354796

 

 

Unfortunately it`s too goldish...not my style.

March 23, 2012 at 6:00 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

Many of them are, unfortunately Arpad. :(


I think we can assume these Miyota Cal. 35xx's were universally used - ubiquitous even. :D

Here's yet another (non-Citizen) brand - this time a Sector, powered by Miyota Cal. 3510, that I found in a thread on UhrForum.de:



March 25, 2012 at 7:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Arpie
Member
Posts: 202

No posts for over a month? Hmmm....Seiko fans don`t like the competitiors, ehh? :P 

Yesterday I have received my Dugena 3560. Unfortunately it has come with a broken bracelet (it was in 4 pieces!!! ) but apart from that the overall condition is good, the dial and the lume is excellent.

To take some photos I had to find a temporary bracelet so I fitted a B1405-E Seiko bracelet coming from a 7A38-7190. I must say it looks very impressive with it. If it was a Citizen I would call it Citizeiko 3560-7190 :D:D

Here are couple of shots with the temporay bracelet:

 

As you can see it needs a new crystal. Because I couldn`t find any database regarding to Citizen/Dugena 35XX watches I had to press out the crystal to measure it. According to my measurements the new crystal has to be 29.8mm in diameter with 2mm thickness. Probably I will try the Cousins F200CMH298.

 

Of course I had to do something with the broken bracelet as well so in the evening I encourage myself to get it done. I forgot to take pictures before the "surgery" but I assure you it was well damaged, the links were bent.

After couple of hours playing with the pliers & screwdrivers here is the result:

 

 

Luckily the bracelet is just big enough to put it on my wrist. :)

You can find more pictures about the watch here: http://s1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc465/gamarp/DUGENA%203560/

May 2, 2012 at 6:04 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

VERY nice, Arpad. ;) Much better-looking than some of the Citizen 3560's with their overcrowded dials. :P

Makes me kinda wish that I had bothered bidding on that similar two-tone white-dialed Dugena in March. :(

May 2, 2012 at 6:12 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Sir Alan
Member
Posts: 451

Nice photos and good work on fixing the bracelet :)


That's a nice looking watch.

May 2, 2012 at 6:13 AM Flag Quote & Reply

JSS
Member
Posts: 32

Love that dial.  Well done getting the original bracelet back on, I think it looks a lot better on it.

 

May 2, 2012 at 6:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

I think we can assume these Miyota Cal. 35xx's were universally used - ubiquitous even. :D

From the sublime (Breitling) to the mildly ridiculous cheaper extreme, other end of the market .....


So that's Accurist, Breitling, Camel Trophy (Citizen and Columbus), Dugena ....


Possibly all the way though watch brands A - Z even ....


I just happened to stumble across this Zentra branded chrono' this morning, which from the dial layout, obviously uses a Cal. 3560:


http://www.ebay.de/itm/320937875206

Chronograph von Zentra Herren Uhr mit Datum Neu



July 7, 2012 at 7:08 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

Breitling even used the 'humble' Miyota Cal. 3S10 in their Navitimer Jupiter Pilot quartz chronograph ....


Miyota Cal. 3S10 being exactly the same thing as Cal. 3510 (apparently dependent upon the OEM being supplied with movements).


Somehow, probably because I bought a couple of straps from them,18 months ago, I've ended up on chronographe.fr 's mailing list. :/

This Breitling Navitimer Jupiter Pilot was amongst the new arrivals in their latest mailshot:: http://chronographe.fr/montres/chronos?num_boutique=3692&num_langue=21940&sessionid=999096771&liste_dep=1&num_categorie=11562&num_produit=232053&Npage=detail.asp




Rather expensive (naturally being Breitling) when considering the humble Cal. 3510 movement inside - yours for a mere 1625 Euros !

Personally I'd sooner have a Seiko 7A38-powered Yema N8 Flygraf (or two) - rather less busy-looking and at a fraction of the price. :)


November 29, 2012 at 12:05 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

In moments of boredom, I still find myself looking whistfully at the occasional Citizen Cal. 35xx  based chrono' which takes my fancy. 

About a month ago, I bid on a very dressy Citizen Cal. 3560 - I actually bid less than a Tenner, but for a few days I was the high bidder:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140888692926

Mens Citizen Wrist Watch



For a Tenner, I could have been interested, but thankfully a few others took up the running and it finally sold for £47.75 after 22 bids:


I also sometimes have to chuckle to myself about the similarity of case and bracelet designs - obvious plagiarism by manufacturers.

This was a Junghans Cal. 3510, listed quite bizarrely, given the condition, on eBay Germany earlier this month as 'New without tags':


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310531241319

Junghans Chronograph Herren-Armbanduhr mit orig. Metallband



Definitely shades of Seiko 7A28-702x and 7A38-706x about that one ! Had it been in better condition, I might have pursued it. :/


But the one which really caught my eye (despite the 'wrong' silver dial colour) was this Citizen Cal. 3530 listed on Yahoo Japan:


http://page8.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h171684316

★80年代シチズンSPORTEスポルテMS!ジウジアーロ7A28デジボーグ




The seller actually included '7A28' in his listing title - which, I'll admit was the reason I happened to stumble across it. ;)


December 22, 2012 at 8:21 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8886

Coincidentally, an example of the black dialed version of this Citizen Cal. 3530, which looks even more like a 7A28-7040/9 came up in a FS advert on the SCWF Trading Post yesterday:

http://www.thewatchsite.com/8-seiko-citizen-trading-post/38169.html

FS: Rare Citizen 3530 Chronograph (Very similar to Seiko 7A28-7049) - $109

 

Have never seen another one like this. From the mid 1980's. This was Citizen's answer to the Seiko 7A28. 12 jewel quartz movement. It has some cool features including electronic hand setting, alarm, and the central second hand is used for both the running seconds and chrono seconds (the lower left pusher changes the mode). Original full-length bracelet. Keeps accurate time, sets properly, and the alarm is fully functional. The only thing that doesn't work is the 2/100 second sub-dial on the right. The chronograph is still functional and times up to 12 hours in 1 second intervals. Very good / 87% condition.

 

$109 Shipped (US). Payment via PayPal. [email protected] (remove "NOSPAM" from address).




His writing 'Have never seen another one like this' made me smile. Scroll back up to the top of the page. Same person 'roverguy78'. ;)


January 11, 2013 at 1:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Arpie
Member
Posts: 202

Ohhh, It was a shame that the seller didn't want to post this beauty outside of Germany.

I should have contacted with Achim....I'm so sad that I missed this one. :(


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/citizen-chronograph-/181090261543



April 4, 2013 at 10:00 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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