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Forum Home > Non-Seiko 7Axx Discussion Area (Re-branded mvmt's) > Cartier Ferrari missing pusher buttons - if push comes to shove

Seiko7A38
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If you've read through the other longer thread (mostly about the red-dialed versions) in this section, you may have noticed this:


It sold for only 290 Euros in August 2011. Apart from having no box and papers, it was also missing a hex-nut pusher button, an

all-too-common problem with these watches, and one to be wary of, because replacements are no longer available from Cartier.


When I knew (even) less about these watches, and was still actively posting on FerrariChat, back in 2009, I naively suggested that it might just be possible to fit Seiko 7Axx pushers as replacements: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63318&page=3

What gave me the (wrong) idea was seeing those vaguely similar-looking pushers with hexagonal ends, used on the 7A48-7010. :roll:


But, of course, the hex-head pushers used on the Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's are of totally different construction / method of retention to Seiko 7Axx's. Funnily enough, some Yema N8's use a similar type of pusher to the Cartier Ferrari Formulas. At the time, Nathan Beehl ('Piloti') was talking about sending me one of his (he has two with missing pusher buttons), so I could have a look, and take some measurements, with a view to possibly getting some replacement pusher button caps machined up. He never did, and I'm not about to take one of my own apart (all 3 have their full complement), to find out how the pushers are fitted to the watch case, but I suspect they're the screw-in or press-in type; two-piece assemblies, topped off with that vulnerable separate gold-plated hex-head cap.

April 4, 2012 at 1:34 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

In post #59 of that FerrariChat thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139178218&postcount=59 .... I wrote:

 

Not a jeweller's but a precision engineering machine shop. There's quite a few in my town.

Get them CNC machined in stainless steel, and then send them off for gold plating elsewhere.

Only thing I haven't yet decided is whether to just to get replacement 'hex nut' caps made up ....

Or to try to re-design the Cartier pusher so it's a so that the shaft and pusher button are made in one piece.

It'll depend what I find once I've removed one from Nathan's watch. You do realize how fiddley these things are ?


There's undoubtedly a demand, and possibly money to be made (though probably a minimal profit, after machining / plating costs).

Some versions of these watches can still fetch 1000 Euros and more (on a good day), but what would the unfortunate owners of watches with missing hex-head pusher buttons be prepared to pay for replacements ? Or would they settle for a cheaper solution ?


I think I've probably mentioned the French online watch dealer, Philippe Boyer http://www.chronographe.fr elsewhere before.

He's always got a few Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's for sale - usually asking around 1000 Euros apiece - sometimes more.

I was idly having a quick look at his current offerings, the other day, and came across this one:

http://www.chronographe.fr/montre_chronographe_occasion_1394.htm?num_produit=181160&Npage=detail.asp




It's a fairly well-worn example, which has possibly suffered from water ingress or battery leakage at some time in the past ....

and is fitted with 3 non-original replacement pushers. The latter is disclosed (in French) in his description:

Les poussoirs sont neufs ont été changés par des adaptables ....

Bearing in mind the overall condition, he's still asking a hefty 955 Euros for it too. 

April 4, 2012 at 2:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

Then it clicked. :roll:

I've previously seen him offering another tired-looking Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono fitted with these same replacement pushers:

http://www.chronographe.fr/montre_chronographe_occasion_1394.htm?num_produit=171998&Npage=detail.asp




That same phrase: Les poussoirs sont neufs ont été changés par des adaptables .... was used in this one's description.


Again, this watch is suffering from general wear to the gunmetal coating and gold plating of the bezel, but he was asking 975 Euros.

I say 'was', because presumably it's since been sold, as it no longer comes up in a current search on 'Cartier Ferrari' on his website.


What Philippe appears to be doing, to overcome the problem of non-availability of the original Cartier Ferrari pusher buttons, makes eminent business sense. Obviously, he has a fairly high turnover of these watches, so he's bound to encounter the odd one of two nicer examples with the errant pusher button problem. So he presumably robs lesser examples (like the two above) of all three of their pusher buttons / complete with the screw-in / plunger assembly, for spares to make good nicer examples, which will command better prices, and then fits these generic pushers to the 'beaters' - and still asks serious money for them. You've got to hand it to him. 

April 4, 2012 at 3:17 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

So what is he using as 'adaptable' replacement pusher assemblies ?

I'd hazard a guess at off-the-shelf ISO-Swiss pushers, something like these:

http://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/4/660/725.aspx or possibly: http://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/4/660/2031.aspx (if they do push in).



The screw-in pushers may be £17.95 + VAT each from Cousins (cheaper to the trade, obviously), but given the prices Philippe Boyer appears to be selling the watches for, even fitting three of them, it's still but a small dent in his profit margins. Food for thought. 

April 4, 2012 at 3:55 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

Someone's obviously read this thread, and taken note. :)

This Cartier Ferrari Formula came up among my eBay saved search notifications this morning:


http://www.ebay.de/itm/290716991707

Ferrari Formula by Cartier von 1991 mit Gebrauchsspuren.



Eine Armbanduhr aus den 90er Jahre,die Uhr wurde bei der Firma Wempe in Hamburg getestet und für Orginal befunden. Es wurden im laufe der Jahre 2 Drücker ersetzt leider nicht die 6 Kant sondern Runde. Die Uhr hat gebrauchsspuren.Versand versichert über DHL.

May 24, 2012 at 6:31 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

That Cartier Ferrari Formula (above) with the two replacement pushers was originally listed on eBay at a rather optimistic 550 Euros.

It went unsold, and the seller has dropped the price in stages: 435 Euros; 350 Euros - he's since re-listed it twice at only 250 Euros:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/290738239624

.... which represents something of a bargain basement price for a Cartier Ferrari - if you can live with the replacement pushers. :/

July 7, 2012 at 7:17 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

Interestingly, an eBay seller 'srilanka20082012', who appears to deal in Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's, just added this new listing:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140893105023



Although a little confusing at first glance, because the first photo is from another of his recently ended auctions:



This listing is actually for a (presumably single) used spare pusher (or crown). See his third photo:



The description is vaguely worded (typical of this seller); see the Q&A from a German potential buyer  :roll: - but translates roughly as:


Here offer only the pusher button for all FERRARI CHRONOGRAPH very rare and hard to find.

Only the golden button is being sold. A value-enhancing part for the watch when all are original.


A bit steep (understatement) at 70 Euros apiece, but I'm sure there are a few owners who'll be willing to pay his price for 'originality'.


December 2, 2012 at 6:49 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

Well that didn't take long. :roll:




Re-listed almost immediately: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140893342680 and once again: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140893412246

December 2, 2012 at 8:10 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

Subtitled: Goddam the Pusher Man !  For those not old enough to remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpoEmlxUPeQ  


As I mentioned in my first post, I'd been talking to Ferrari aficionado Nathan Beehl about his Cartier Ferrari Formula chronographs.

He had two of the same model, both missing a hex nut pusher cap. We later discussed the possibility of robbing one pusher from the 'lesser' of the two watches to make good the other; then fitting the 'lesser' watch with two aftermarket pushers. We hadn't spoken in a little while, and unbeknownst to me, Nathan had bought two of those pusher buttons from German eBay seller srilanka20082012.

I had a look through their feedback; didn't spot Nathan's eBay ID, but did notice a comment left by another buyer 'f512bbcartier':

good but would like the pin associated with the druckknopf, I would pay for it. Hmm. Interesting. 


I should say now, I still haven't attempted to dismantle the pushers on any of my own 3 Cartier Ferrari Formula's for the simple logic:

If it ain't broke - don't fix it ! .... and knowing the propensity of these things to go missing. So I still wasn't exactly sure how they fitted.

Nathan emailed me last week, asking if I could fit the pushers for him. He couldn't see how to do it himself, due to failing eyesight. 

Tell me about it !! :roll:

The box arrived this morning, but I didn't get a chance to take any photos till late this evening, so they're artificially lit (or by flash). 

January 16, 2013 at 5:19 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

They're both the same model; both missing the hex nut pusher cap at 4 o'clock. This is the better of the two (on the original bracelet):


January 16, 2013 at 5:51 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

From all the various eBay listing photos I'd seen of Cartier Ferrari Formula chronographs with missing pusher buttons, I still hadn't quite been able to discern exactly what I was looking at - but now I know. I was particularly pleased with my second photo above. 8)


These pusher assemblies are very similar to those used on the Junghans High Tech 24/4610 (another re-branded '7A38').

Except the Junghans pusher buttons are much smaller. In fact, this style of screw-in pusher is quite common (except on Seiko 7Axx's).

The outward facing portion of the main pusher housing is splined, and screws into the case using one of these type of tools:

http://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/tools/pusher-or-tube-removing-and-fitting-tools/chronograph-pusher-tube-fitting-removing-tools

Unfortunately the Cartier Ferrari pusher body's splines measure 3.3mm Ø rather than 3.0mm Ø, so that means this one:



Fortunately, thanks to Nathan having bought a couple of original buttons, it now looks like I'm not going to need to invest in one. :D


January 16, 2013 at 6:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

But had he actually been sold two pusher buttons ? :/

I'd measured the exposed threaded end of that pusher shaft and found it was 0.78mm diameter. Ring any bells with anybody ? :|

That's the same nominal 0.8mm diameter as the threaded part of a Seiko 7Axx crown stem - part number 0354728. So I was already thinking to myself (before I've even begun to dismantle either of these watches), could the crown and pusher buttons be the same ? 

I don't think so, realistically. Then I took a closer look at the contents of the ziplock polythene bag and attempted to photograph them:


January 16, 2013 at 6:51 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
Site Owner
Posts: 8910

I suspected that the button on the right was actually a crown, rather than a pusher button - but until I dismantled Nathan's watch, which I did this afternoon, I couldn't say for certain. I've chucked in a couple of extra photos for Nathan's benefit, as much as anybody else's.

Unfortunately the usual caveat of lack of natural daylight applies, hence my use of flash - my apologies for the low quality. 


I'm pleased to say the case-back of this one unscrewed fairly easily, just using a sticky ball (without recourse to aerosol freezer). :)

I've removed the bracelet by splitting it at the first link, rather than pushing out the case joining pin, because these come out easier.




Nice clean movement. At the bottom of the case you can see the crown / stem thread and a pusher shaft making contact with the lever.


The ends of the pusher shafts are exactly what I'd expected to find, with a small screw slot - just rather smaller than I'd anticipated:




I removed the two o'clock pusher button and shaft components from Nathan's watch to compare it with the spare button supplied:




The one on the left had since been soaked in WD40 for 24 hours, in a semi-successful attempt to remove the verdigris. If I'd paid as much as Nathan did, for a secondhand pusher in that condition, the eBay seller would have received a scathing negative feedback. :mad:

By comparison, the pusher button on the right, that came off Nathan's watch, barely needed 5 minutes in the ultrasonic cleaning tank.


On the right of the next photo is the crown and stem removed from Nathan's watch:




I was hoping it would be the same as the other pusher button supplied him by 'srilanka20082012 (which I believe is actually a crown).

They're different: Nathan's crown has just a white nylon 'Hytrel' gasket, whereas the other one has a larger diameter 'Hytrel' gasket, plus an O-ring fitted. I suspect it's a later manufacturing variation for improved water resistance. The (longer) post length are both the same and this one supplied to Nathan as a 'pusher button' doesn't have the internal splines - so it can't be anything but a crown, IMO.

January 19, 2013 at 12:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

A couple of posts back, I wrote:

 

These pusher assemblies are very similar to those used on the Junghans High Tech 24/4610 (another re-branded '7A38').

Except the Junghans pusher buttons are much smaller. In fact, this style of screw-in pusher is quite common (except on Seiko 7Axx's).


In fact, the Junghans pusher buttons aren't really that much smaller - they just have a thinner wall thickness and are round, rather than hexagonal in section. Their internal spline diameter appears to be exactly the same (3.3mm) and their construction is virtually identical.


Here's a photo I took when I was working on one of mine, back in December 2011. The pusher screw slot on these is slightly larger.




I'd bought a second Junghans High Tech 24/4610 in November 2011. As a complete surprise and a very generous gesture, the German eBay seller, Klaus 'bergjodler58' enclosed an additional almost mint case and bracelet with it, completely free of charge:




So after I'd re-built the watch I ended up with a couple of spare pushers. Well, almost enough components. I lost a couple of bits. :(

The next photo shows most of my spare Junghans pusher components (on left), compared to Nathan's Cartier Ferrari bits (at right):




Just the two pusher buttons:




Here's two of those Junghans pusher buttons loosely trial fitted to Nathan's watch case (using the Cartier Ferrari pusher shafts):



January 19, 2013 at 1:22 PM Flag Quote & Reply

piloti
Member
Posts: 2

Hi Paul - great photos. I'm pleased that my damaged chronos could help in your forum. What you've done so far is very interesting and I look forward to seeing the end result.

By the way - has anyone got a tool for removing the backs off the Ferrari Formula chronos?

Nathan

January 19, 2013 at 5:12 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

It's been a bit of a learning experience for me too, Nathan - better than 'practicing' on my own Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's. ;)

What I still don't understand is how so many of them end up losing pusher buttons. :/

The pusher's interlocking splines precludes the button from unscrewing from the outside and the other end of the pusher shaft (with the small screwdriver slot) is kept in check by the movement's actuator levers, which they bear against. It can only be by breakage.


As I wrote in my email, it looks like I'm only going to be able to fix this one. My tentative plans to fit the Junghans pushers to your other watch have been kyboshed. I simply can't get the case-back undone. It's absolutely solid and won't budge, even with aerosol freezer. 

I suspect whoever refitted it (after the last battery change) used the proprietary Cartier case-back wrench - to extremely good effect. Apart from the fact it's done up murder tight, there are no extraneous marks on it at all. It's almost pristine - unlike your other one.

For those of you who aren't familiar with the Cartier Ferrari Formula case-back, here's a (library) shot of what they look like:




The circular flange sits flush with the back of the watch case. The very slightly raised area (<0.5mm) is a tetradecagon (14-sided) measuring 32.0mm across the flats. Basically, if it won't unscrew using a 'sticky ball', you need the proprietary Cartier wrench. 

 

January 19, 2013 at 5:41 PM Flag Quote & Reply

piloti
Member
Posts: 2

Thanks - for experimenting on my watches! I hope you learnt a lot. It's been interesting to see what you've done. I'm genuinely impressed by your knowledge and practical ability. Nathan


January 20, 2013 at 2:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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You shouldn't be so quick to flatter, Nathan. I hadn't actually said that I'd been able to get the first one back together yet. Have now. :P



January 20, 2013 at 4:16 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 8910

People sometimes accuse me of being cynical. I have absolutely no idea why. 

If you've studied the photos of Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's which I've posted in the earlier part of this thread (as examples), then you'll possibly have noticed they were all black anodised finish and had been fitted with gold plated replacement round pushers.

I've since gone through my various Cartier Ferrari sub-folders of (hundreds of) photos of that I've saved and haven't found any others.

(That is apart from this red-dialed 'bitza' currently offered by Chronographe.fr, which we'd already discussed in the other thread).




A couple of weekends ago, when I was 'experimenting' with one Nathan's watches, I suggested that it might be possible to use another brand's (specifically a Junghans High Tech 7A38) pusher caps in place of the Cartier Ferrari 'hex nut' pusher buttons (as opposed to swapping the complete pusher assembly) - as a cheaper and simpler solution. Nathan's watch is a stainless two-tone; the Junghans' pushers I trial fitted were silver anodised stainless. They not only fitted easily, but worked - both functionally and aesthetically, IMO.




Lo and behold, less than two weeks after I'd posted that photo, a Cartier Ferrari Formula was listed by a US eBay seller ....

and was almost immediately flagged up by another member in this (subsequently re-titled) thread in the eBay forum section:

http://www.seiko7a38.com/apps/forums/topics/show/8582353-cartier-ferrari-formula-non-standard-pushers-caveat-emptor


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190791511087


The eBay seller's description sounded deliberately vague:


Vintage Ferrari Chronograph watch Stainless and gold color case, Please look at the pictures as they illustrate the cosmetic condition of the item. keep in mind the item is used and has some minor scratches. Item is sold as is without return, so be certain you want the item before bidding. It is working and the chrono functions work as they should. Based on what I have looked up online this particular model was made By Cartier however I have not seen any markings to that effect on the case or the movement, but please do your research before bidding. The watch keeps good time and works great, but I am selling as is and as found. It measures approximately 41.00mm by 45.00mm lug to lug. Thank you and good luck.


No mention was made of the three replacement pusher caps fitted. Here's just a couple of the dozen listing photos:




Obviously just a complete coincidence, Right ? :/ As the saying goes: Imitation (read plagiarism) is the sincerest form of flattery. 

So go ahead - call me a cynic if you like. See if I care. :P

February 1, 2013 at 11:14 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Toscane
Member
Posts: 1

Seiko7A38 at December 2, 2012 at 6:49 AM

Interestingly, an eBay seller 'srilanka20082012', who appears to deal in Cartier Ferrari Formula chrono's, just added this new listing:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140893105023



Although a little confusing at first glance, because the first photo is from another of his recently ended auctions:



This listing is actually for a (presumably single) used spare pusher (or crown). See his third photo:



The description is vaguely worded (typical of this seller); see the Q&A from a German potential buyer  :roll: - but translates roughly as:


Here offer only the pusher button for all FERRARI CHRONOGRAPH very rare and hard to find.

Only the golden button is being sold. A value-enhancing part for the watch when all are original.


A bit steep (understatement) at 70 Euros apiece, but I'm sure there are a few owners who'll be willing to pay his price for 'originality'.


Hello friend, 

I'm looking for pushers for FERRARI FORMULA by Cartier, hexagonal gold pushers, if you have this parts available or a web adress for buy it ? 

Thanks for response

Brgds/ Toscane

July 9, 2013 at 5:17 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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