Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers

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Forum Home > Non-Seiko 7Axx Discussion Area (Re-branded mvmt's) > The non-Seiko branded 7Axx Franken / Wrong Un's thread

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 12030

A real classic case of deliberate misrepresentation to start the new page. 

I'm a bit late writing up this poor attempt at deception by a Georgian eBay seller. I'd spotted this Franken, which possibly comprises parts of 3 different dressy Yema N8 models last week, but hadn't found time to post anything about it. In fact, it was listed 10 days ago - on March 15th, but there wasn't really any immediate danger of a mug punter falling for it, simply because of the dishonest would-be seller's laughable 'pie-in-the-sky' Buy-it-Now price of  $330


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183129162883



Ignore the bnllsh!t above - especially the 'rare model' bit. It's a Franken. 


The well-worn case (note where it's worn through exposing the resin in one place) and case-back may indeed be from a N81W53. But it ends there. The moulded plastic dial, with its raised Roman numerals is from a N8YX53. Photo of mine below and a few more in this other thread.




The seller's Franken is fitted with pomme hands and black jappaned sub-dial hands, which aren't correct for either model, and I suspect were donated by a N81W63. Oh Yes and it's also fitted with a cabouchon crown, which again could be from a N81W63. The N81W53 has a solid domed crown, which looks like this ....




I could of course be completely wrong and we may be looking at a rare previously undiscovered Yema factory prototype. But I don't think so. :P


March 26, 2018 at 4:22 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
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Posts: 12030

Whilst not a complete franken, this certainly belongs in the 'Wrong Un's category, because sure as eggs is eggs, this isn't how it left Orient Watch Co.'s Hino factory. I suspect a few readers are bound to have spotted it already, by dint of the the Italian seller's inclusion of 'Seiko 7A38' in the title and description of his listing.


The seller possibly deliberately (of more anon) has omitted to make any mention of the Orient model number. It was, before it was considerably modified, a J39908-70 - a relatively common J39 model, which came branded in both ORIENT and RACER versions, with two basic dial designs / multiple dial colour variations, most of which are documented in this thread.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264001521441



Bellissimo cronografo marca Orient, con movimento Seiko 7A38, cassa laminata in oro e cinturino in pelle marrone marca Morellato, l'orologio si presenta in ottime condizioni estetiche senza graffi né sulla cassa ne sul fondello ove è ancora presente l'adesivo di protezione . Per qualsiasi altra informazione si prega di contattare.


The most obvious thing, which immediately caught my eye, was that it's fitted with completely the wrong set of non-original replacement hands. The hour and minute hands don't even match. :roll: The red chronograph sweep second hand (which is possibly off a Seiko 7A28-7100) is obviously designed to appeal. The two upper sub-dial hands have probably been painted to match and could have come off any 7Axx. Here's how the correct dial / hands combination should look (photo below is of Alessandro Dotti Contra's well loved but original example).



Translating the Italian seller's description, he states 'with Seiko 7A38 movement'. There could be more than a ring of truth to that.  Of course, if it hadn't been messed about with, it would actually have an Orient J3920 branded movement. But notice the Day / Date windows. Black backgrounds ?? :o I haven't checked, but off the top of my head, all my Orient / Racer J39's (especially those with white / light coloured dials and even some with black or dark dials) all have white / silver day / date wheels with black lettering.


He also states: 'on the case where the protective sticker is still present'. Yes, there is a case-back sticker present, but it's not original. It's obviously an Orient Watch Co. case-back, but looks like it's been heavily polished. You can't even read the model number / case material stampings through the sticker, which makes me wonder if it actually is the correct case-back.


Oh Yes and the newish looking crown isn't original either. It should be that fluted domed (almost like Breitling) style found on many Orient / Racer J39's.


If the foregoing isn't enough to put you off, there's the 250 Euro asking price. :roll:


October 23, 2018 at 10:37 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
Site Owner
Posts: 12030

I spotted this hideous 7A38 / 7A48 / Orient / Racer J39 Franken aberration, listed by a Spanish eBay seller a week ago (as a 10-day auction, of which there are still three days remaining), but hadn't got around to writing it up before this evening. No great surprise, there are still no takers at the 99.99 Euros opening bid price. :roll:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283369867518


Reloj de pulsera para caballero de la casa RACER CHRONOGRAP TEAN COLLECTION CALENDARIO (CAL: SEIKO 7A48A)

DIÁMETRO: 39,50mm sin contar La Corona.

Funcionan perfectamente y lo vendo tal como se ve en fotos y cualquier pregunta no dudes de preguntar antes de pujar no aceptó ningún voto negativo, por eso hay que preguntar Antes de comprar .Esto es todo y el pago mediante en Paypal o cuenta bancaria.


The watch case is pretty obviously from a Seiko 7A48-7000 / -7009, complete with that watch's Roman numeral dial ring. The bracelet fitted isn't correct for that watch - just some random tired aftermarket item. The movement back-plate is signed Seiko (not Orient J3920, as one might expect, had the fabricator done a direct dial / movement swap) and the battery +ve plate appears to be stamped 7A28A ! :o


But what intrigued me about this concoction were the Racer dial and Orient (Racer) case-back. It's stamped J39924-50. I don't think I've ever come across one of those before. As you may know, on Orient / Racer J39's, the third digit designates the case finish, where a second 9, as in this instance signifies all over gold plating. Anybody who's collected J39's will already be familiar with the Racer J39024-50, particularly the 'Panda' dialed version. It's one of the most common and easiest variants to find. This NOS example, fitted with a non-original gold-tone bracelet was listed by another Spanish eBay seller last month. I didn't need another one. :lol:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233087451305



From what I've seen, determined and collected NOS examples of all of them, there were 4 different dial variations used in the J39024-50: the 'Panda' (above); a 'Reverse Panda' (with silver sub-dials), a plain all-White dial (with batons) and a  similar plain all-Black dial. They're all documented in the Racer J39 thread.


Going by the nomenclature of the additional '9' in the J39924-50, not having seen a pukka one yet, I can only assume it's the same gold plated (metal coated resin) watch case, but with a gold-plated bezel instead of gunmetal. But common sense would lead you to expect it to use possibly the same 4 dial dial variations as the J39024-50. Right ? :/ Wrong ! :roll:


This is my (shopsoiled) NOS J39024-50 with the all-Black dial:




Now whereas there are obvious similarities to the all-Black dial in this Franken ....




.... there are also some subtle differences, like the crude blobs of lume instead of gold-plated batons and the minute marks (and also the slightly smaller radius they're printed on - hence the reason they almost touch the sub-dial rims).


So Yes, I'm definitely intrigued, but not enough to spend 100 Euros on this piece of junk, just to get the 'unique' dial and case-back. Patience may not be one of my virtues, but in this instance, I'm prepared to wait until a decent pukka example of the J39924-50 comes along. ;)


February 14, 2019 at 2:09 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
Site Owner
Posts: 12030

Before I add the next abberation to this thread, I should point out that the above 3 non-Seiko Frankens are all still out there on eBay, having been almost continually re-listed by their would-be sellers. So Caveat Emptor !


This latest hideous abberation, comprised mostly of C.G.H. components, was listed yesterday evening by a French eBay seller, as a 5-day auction, with an opening bid price of 9 Euros. The seller describes it as a working Jaz Paris chronograph, but the extremely battered watch case is instantly recognizable as being from a Kamatz 517000. The black dial and presumably the movement are from the blingy Jaz N8YZ63. I have absolutely no idea about the random non-original bracelet fitted. :roll:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/382926105470


CHRONOGRAPH TACHYMETRE HOMME JAZ PARIS QUARTZ

JOUR ET DATE DANS ROND A 3H

TOUT FONCTIONNE PARFAITEMENT

STAINLESS STEEL

LUNETTE TOURNANTE

DIM 40MM

FOND VISSE

WATER RESISTANT


Here's how the two watches that spawned this Fugly Franken Frog once looked:



April 30, 2019 at 2:45 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
Site Owner
Posts: 12030

Whereas I'm usually quite methodical in keeping the various 7A38-xxxx model specific threads updated with eBay sales results, I don't always bother to update the Franken threads. Despite my efforts to flag them up to the community, some mug punter usually ends up buying them - often paying too much, IMHO. I'm going to make a couple of exceptions this time, you see I have an admission to make.

I actually bought that hideous Kamatz / Jaz Franken myself !


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/382926105470

No I wasn't under the influence, but stone cold sober. :P I didn't need another well worn Kamatz 517000 watch case either. Plenty of those in my scrap bucket already. But after I'd written my previous post, I remembered that I had another JAZ N8YZ63 in pieces, that I'd broken up and robbed of its movement. I thought this Franken could act as a dial / movement donor to re-build it. It won't actually be a straight drop-in replacement, because the botcher who built it has fitted the lumed baton hands from the Kamatz, in place of the correct delicate leaf style used on the Jaz. Anyway, I ended up winning the auction for a reasonable 39.49 Euros. The Franken arrived a couple of weeks ago. Much to my surprise, everything actually appeared to work correctly.


I set the time and date and left it on the bench (and forgot about it for a while). Yesterday, I finally got around to unscrewing the case-back, to be greeted by this:



I've seen some under-sized (usually too thin) batteries fitted by cheapskate eBay sellers in the past, but this watch botcher takes the biscuit ! That's a LR41 (# 384 / 392 equivalent) he'd fitted. To keep it in place and make contact, he'd bent the tabs of the battery positive plate ! 


May 23, 2019 at 5:01 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
Site Owner
Posts: 12030

Seiko7A38 at February 14, 2019 at 2:09 PM

I spotted this hideous 7A38 / 7A48 / Orient / Racer J39 Franken aberration, listed by a Spanish eBay seller a week ago (as a 10-day auction, of which there are still three days remaining), but hadn't got around to writing it up before this evening. No great surprise, there are still no takers at the 99.99 Euros opening bid price. :roll:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283369867518


But what intrigued me about this concoction were the Racer dial and Orient (Racer) case-back. It's stamped J39924-50. I don't think I've ever come across one of those before. As you may know, on Orient / Racer J39's, the third digit designates the case finish, where a second 9, as in this instance signifies all over gold plating. 


From what I've seen, determined and collected NOS examples of all of them, there were 4 different dial variations used in the J39024-50: the 'Panda' (above); a 'Reverse Panda' (with silver sub-dials), a plain all-White dial (with batons) and a  similar plain all-Black dial. They're all documented in the Racer J39 thread.


Going by the nomenclature of the additional '9' in the J39924-50, not having seen a pukka one yet, I can only assume it's the same gold plated (metal coated resin) watch case, but with a gold-plated bezel instead of gunmetal. 


Now whereas there are obvious similarities to the all-Black dial in this Franken ....




.... there are also some subtle differences, like the crude blobs of lume instead of gold-plated batons and the minute marks (and also the slightly smaller radius they're printed on - hence the reason they almost touch the sub-dial rims).


So Yes, I'm definitely intrigued, but not enough to spend 100 Euros on this piece of junk, just to get the 'unique' dial and case-back. Patience may not be one of my virtues, but in this instance, I'm prepared to wait until a decent pukka example of the J39924-50 comes along. ;)



After a few re-listings (as a Buy-it-Now, rather than an auction), that hideous Racer J39924-50 / Seiko 7A48 Franken abberation eventually sold a couple of days ago. Much to my amazement, for the full 99.99 Euros Buy-it-Now asking price. :roll:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283384131803

I'm not suffering from 'Bystander's Regrets'. I did think once or twice about making the seller a (much lower) offer. I was toying with the idea of fitting the Racer dial and case-back into a spare J39024-50 case, but that would still have been a 'wrong un'. Then I spotted the water staining around the right hand perimeter of the dial (which would have been mostly hidden by the original Tachymeter ring) and dismissed the idea out of hand. As I wrote previously, I really was only interested in it, 'in the name of research' - for recording the details of this first sighting of a (partial) J39924-50 in my Orient / Racer J39 'Knowledge Database', which is now nearing completion.




To my mind, one of the most important fields on that spreadsheet is the dial part number. It helps to identify different variants using the same J39 case-back model number. For example, there are 4 different dials (that I know of so far) used in the RACER J39024-50. I suppose I could have messaged the Spanish eBay seller and asked him what the dial part number was. You couldn't read it properly through the badly scratched crystal. Instead, I zoomed in on the bottom of the dial in his various photos and squinted hard (a few times). I reckon it's J392024R-023. 




That's how I've entered it on my speadsheet, anyway. Logically, it follows on from the -021 and -022 dials used in the J39024-50. Technically (if Orient Watch Co. had been anything like consistent in their allocation of dial part numbers), it should more correctly be J392924R-023. But I'm sure I can read a '0'. The fact that it's probably J39024R-023 implies this dial may also have been used in another hitherto unseen variant of J39024-50. It's not unthinkable. I've seen 5 different dial part number / variations (without taking colours into account) used in the J39908-70 !


Perhaps if the buyer of this Franken 7A48 / Racer J39 reads this, he might be so kind as to confirm the dial part number. But I won't hold my breath waiting. :P


May 23, 2019 at 5:34 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
Site Owner
Posts: 12030

This Cartier Ferrari Formula Cal. 531 listed earlier today by a German eBay seller may well catch someone out. It's not quite so much a complete 'wrong' un, but not exactly how it left Ateliers ABC either. It really depends whether you're just looking for a cheap Ferrari chrono' or more of a purist, who likes things right.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183840186847


Cartier Chronograph Ferrari Formula daydate 40mm

Referenz: 117010

Werk: Quarz

Gehäuse: Edelstahl

Durchmesser: 40mm

Ziffernblatt: Weiß

Armband: Edelstahl

KR105222

Der Artikel wird nach UStG § 25a Differenzbesteuert.


There were 3 slightly different variations of the white Roman numeral dial used over the years. They also used a couple of different handsets, but nothing like those fitted to this particular example. This is the early production version, with 'JAPAN QUARTZ' printed in the 30 minute counting sub-dial (model # F6104805). It should have a gold plated sweep second hand, gold plated hour and minute hands with grey inlays and grey sub-dial hands, per the (admittedly rather old) photo below:




It's been fitted with dark grey hour and minute and red chrono' hands that look like they're from another model (I haven't figured which yet), but you can see from the seller's photos that the sub-dial hands are slightly too long, because they overlap the gold rims of the sub-dials.


June 8, 2019 at 11:57 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
Site Owner
Posts: 12030

Well, perhaps 'catch someone out' wasn't quite the right expression. :/ But I had a pretty good idea that the allure of those non-original red chronograph hands and the German seller's comparatively low asking price would lead to a quick sale. I didn't realize how quick. Checking my eBay watching page, I've just spotted that Cartier Ferrari Formula sold on Saturday evening - only a few hours after I'd made my previous post. :roll:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183840186847


WatchCount.com's look-up tool reveals it sold for a best offer of 350 Euros.



Incidentally, I'd had to dig deep into my photo archives to find an image of that particular two-tone stainless white Roman numeral dial variant, which clearly showed the original hands. That photo was the primary image of a UK eBay listing, dating back to March 2010. What prompted me to check was that yesterday, another German eBay seller had re-listed another. It's not exactly the same, in that this one has the slightly later dial with a 'Scudetto' instead of the 'Prancing Horse', but it uses the same original gold plated / light grey handset. Here's a few of that seller's photos, which show the hands clearly.




At 549 Euros, it's currently over-priced and rather more expensive than the one that sold at the weekend, fitted with the wrong hands, but if I was actually looking to buy an example of this variant, this would be my choice.


June 11, 2019 at 9:58 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Seiko7A38
Site Owner
Posts: 12030

Under other more fortunate circumstances, I might be adding this new post onto the Racer J39 'Spanish 7A38 Inquisition' thread. Probably more rightfully, it belongs in the Orient J39 variants (ones that got away) thread. :( However, seeing as all the previous references I've made to this particular Orient / Racer J39 case model variant were in this thread, here is where I'm going to post it (for now). So there. :P


Yesterday afternoon, out of the blue, Romanian forum member Gogusrl (real name Andrei) emailed me links to a couple of Racer J39's he'd spotted on OLX.ro. Both had only been listed a matter of hours earlier. I replied promptly, asking if he'd kindly purchase them on my behalf. Although there was no mention of a model number in the listing, one of them was obviously an original unmolested J39924-50 (which had formed the basis of that horrible 7A48 Franken, listed by the Spanish eBay seller in mid-February - see my posts higher up the page).


http://www.olx.ro/oferta/orient-racer-chronograph-IDcHJiP.html

Orient Racer chronograph

Bucharest, county Bucharest, Sector 5 Added by phone at 15:57, 15 August 2019, Ad number: 187738283



Ceas Orient Racer chronograph. Stare foarte bună. Vintage, anii 80. Funcțional.


The asking price was a reasonable 450 Romanian Lei, which I'd happily have paid. That's equivalent to approx 95 Euros - less than the Franken 7A48 sold for in  May. Unfortunately we were too late. It had already been sold. :(


Anyway, closure of sorts. Turns out the J39924-50 looks much as I'd expected it to: same gold-plated resin watch case as the J39024-50, fitted with a gold plated bezel. I updated my Orient J39 'Knowledge Database' Excel spreadsheet accordingly. 8)


August 16, 2019 at 7:46 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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