Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers

I'm writing this topic in slightly belated response to a thread that was started over on SCWF a couple of days ago.

http://www.thewatchsite.com/21-japanese-watch-discussion-forum/210138.html 

Honda 7a28 - 7160 or 7170?

.... And in deference to their moderator John 'The Tiger' Bentley, who thinks I should have all the answers to all things 7A. 

Unfortunately, in this case (as many others, I'll openly admit) I don't.  But I'm always willing to investigate - and learn more.

Although there's no mention, or link included, this Honda F1 7A28-7170 was listed on Yahoo Japan auctions last week. All last week.

Thing is, 7A28's aren't really my bag - and whereas I may run a search on '7A38' on Yahoo Japan three, four times a week, or more, I don't always bother doing the same on '7A28' and '7A48'. As a result, I completely missed spotting the auction while was it live. 

http://page24.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/q104505806

レア ホンダ クロノグラフ 7A28-7170 10thアニバ－サリ－モデル

As usual, Google translates the seller's title and description not particularly well, but in parts quite amusingly: 

Rare Honda chronograph 7A28-7170 10th Aniba - Sari - model

Product: This is "rare Honda chronograph 7A28-7170 10th Aniba - model - Sari".

Condition: generally scratch, dirt less beautiful commodity. Windshield intact.

Because of battery exhaustion, I do not have the confirmation operation.

If it does not work even if the battery exchange, at the highest bidder please bear the maintenance cost.

Only the person who was your understanding, bid ask.

Windshield Size: Vertical about 3.9㎝ × side about 4.0 cm (Ryu - not included's).

Ke - scan thickness: about 1.2㎜ arm around (inner circumference): about 19㎝

Accessories: Dedicated to case - scan.

With regard to the ※ state Please check the image. ※ not read the item description, those who do not understand, please do not bid. ※

Since the mischief is large, new and, appraisal by an order of magnitude please refrain from the tender.

If here you bid it is there where I am allowed to delete.  This item is, it will be in non-returnable, only those who understand.

Roh - Kure - No, Bruno - Rita - in your application, you will please. Delivery method, will be the courier dispatch. 

John may have almost hastily dismissed it as looking like a cheap fake, but I'm not so sure. 

Let's just make a note of the obvious differences from the more common 7A28-7160 Honda F1.

1) Authentic looking case-back, but stamped 7A28-7170.

2) Different colour lower dial plate - Silver rather than Black.

4) Different colour hand bosses on upper two sub-dials - again Silver rather than Black.

4) 1992 printed on upper dial plate.

5) '10th Anniversary of Honda's return to F-1' engraved on upper lug end - with '203', which might indicate one of a 'Limited Edition'.

6) The watch case appears to have a lightly bead blasted finish, compared to the highly polished finish of the more familiar version.

I'm sure Don won't mind me borrowing his photo (of a 'normal' 7A28-7160 Honda F1) from the WRUW thread for comparison. 

The glaring anomoly with this 7A28-7170 Honda F1 of course being the '1992' printed on the upper dial plate which conflicts with the 89xxxx (September 1988) case-back serial number, as correctly pointed out by Mike Thompson in post # 5 of the SCWF thread.

Here's a copy and paste of something I wrote in the WRUW thread, last year, in response to a question about Don's 7A28-7160.

Originally posted by myself on December 27, 2015 at 1:51 PM

Don's 7A28-7160 Honda F1 was manufactured in 1988. Going by serial numbers seen, these watches were produced in 1988 and 1989. Over the years Seiko and Honda have collaborated on a number of 'F1' branded watches - right up to the current 'Sportura' range. Some are branded Honda, some as Seiko (with Honda Racing in smaller print). The gear tooth motif is a recurrent theme.

I suggest you try googling 'Honda + Seiko'.

The 7A28-7160 was likely produced to commemorate Honda's return to F1 as an engine supplier in the 1980's.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_in_Formula_One and the section Honda as an engine supplier.

The 7A28-7160 was a JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) model only - so the best place to find one is on Yahoo Japan auctions.

See this thread: Yahoo Japan Auctions - Watching Watches - continued ....

You'll find a number of references to the 7A28-7160 in there (it's a 5 page thread).

They're not as rare as some folk would have you believe and can sometimes be picked up relatively cheaply (like Don's example). 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By 1992 Seiko had long sinced ceased manufacturing any 'new' 7A28's - the last manufactured were the 7A28-7120 RAF Gen. 1's.

A few are occasionally seen with 01xxxx (January 1990) case-back serial numbers.

But what if these 7A28-7170 Honda F1's were effectively 'New Old Stock' ? 

I saw this, not my cup of tea but I would say it looks legit, the engraving is poor, not as crisp as on the bezel but could easily be as you suggest no 203 of a special edition

I do wish you'd let me finish. 

Phil may have kinda beaten me to the punchline, but here's what I posit - purely 'thinking outside the box'. 

Honda approached Seiko sometime in the late 1980's and initially asked them to design a (non-specific) F1 commemorative watch.

In 1988 they started to manufacture 2 versions: the familiar 7A28-7160 with the Silver / Black dial and the Silver / Silver 7A28-7170.

At some point, early on, Honda marketing decided they preferred the 7A28-7160 and cancelled their order for the 7A28-7170.

So Seiko immediately ceased manufacture and moth-balled what they'd produced. Then, in 1992, after Honda had distributed all their stocks of the 7A28-7160 to their executives and customers, they came back and asked Seiko if they could produce another edition. Honda asked if they could me made more distinguishable from the original 7A28 F1 watches (apart from the different dial colours).

So the small batch of watches which had already been manufactured in 1988 (hence the case-back serial number) were partly dismantled; their upper dial plates screen printed '1992', the presumably once highly polished cases lightly bead-blasted and the engraving done on the upper lug ends - which is why it looks like an after-thought. It probably is.

Of course this is pure speculation on my part, but it does provide an explanation of sorts. Needless to say, there's no way that Seiko (or Honda) would confirm this. You can't verify the model numbers: even the known 7A28-7160 doesn't exist on Seiko's database ! 

One final thought. Perhaps that '203' atop the engraving of this watch adds some credence to a myth I've seen cited a couple of times, regarding a 'Limited Edition of 273' (if I've remembered the number correctly). In the past it's erroniously been quoted in reference to the 7A28-7160 Honda F1. Should it rightfully belong instead to the 7A28-7170 ? If there were indeed only 273 produced (and Seiko didn't want, or wasn't able to re-tool), it might explain why it just states '203', rather than 203 / 273 or a possibly preferable 203 / 500.

It transpires that the OP in that SCWF thread, who goes by the user ID 'qship' was the (sole) winning bidder of that Yahoo Japan action for the 7A28-7170 Honda F1. Because a couple of days later, he posted to that effect.

Earlier today, he followed up with this post:

From his comments, he clearly hasn't bothered to follow the link to this thread, which was posted in the SCWF thread. 

Sometimes, I really wonder why I bother. 

Perhaps these things aren't quite so rare after all. 

Seeing as I'd completely missed that 7-day Yahoo Japan auction listing for the 7A28-7170 Honda F1, while it was live ....

I thought I ought to start searching YJ on '7A28' at least once per week. Guess what came up at the top of my search ? 

http://page14.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/s482672974

Google translates the Japanese seller's description (badly as usual) as follows:

【Product】

Honda chronograph 7A28-7170 10th Aniba - Sari - model 1992

HONDA F-1 COLLECTION

An inner diameter of about 17.5cm (There are three frames)

Outer box (there is torn a little), manual, there is a guarantee.

【State】

It is a dead battery. Please consider as Jean goods.

Once upon a time it is used goods, which were used, but there is no scratches on the windshield.

No scratches even belt conspicuous, is a relatively clean state.

Please confirm with a photograph.

【Comment】

State extremely those who care about a, please refrain.

No claim, no return, please.

Zooming in on the seller's second photo, this example appears to be # 139 (of a limited edition of however many, who knows).

Again, like the previous one (# 203), it carries a 89xxxxx (Sepember 1988) case-back serial number - 890884 (versus 890784).

Intrigued by this second sighting, I sent a PM to forum member Don about them, thinking he might be interested. He replied:

I think this is the third one up. The one I saw come and go for 22,000 Yen - had a serial # of 39 no box or papers.

I ran a few different searches on ended Yahoo Japan auctions, but couldn't find one that matched Don's description. 

http://closedsearch.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/closedsearch/7A28

http://closedsearch.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/closedsearch/7A28-7160

http://closedsearch.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/closedsearch/7A28-7170

http://closedsearch.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/closedsearch/Honda+7A28

Undeterred, however, with a little googling I managed to find another recent ended listing for a 7A28-7170 Honda F1 (of sorts).

http://item/yahoo/auction/n167599028 (found using Buyee's search engine, but also appears in couple of above search results):

.... which led me to: http://page11.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n167599028

Now, I may be pre-judging this example (or should I say post-judging), but unless there was a third variation on the theme, I'd suspect this was a cobbled together franken - a regular silver / black (without '1992') 7A28-7160 dial and movement that's been conveniently slotted into a 'limited edition' 7A28-7170 bead-blasted and engraved case. Per the seller's description (can be discerned in the second photo), this example was # 021. The case-back s/n 890865 is close to the other two.

Seiko7A38 at March 3, 2016 at 1:10 PM

Perhaps these things aren't quite so rare after all. 

Seeing as I'd completely missed that 7-day Yahoo Japan auction listing for the 7A28-7170 Honda F1, while it was live ....

I thought I ought to start searching YJ on '7A28' at least once per week. Guess what came up at the top of my search ? 

http://page14.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/s482672974

A slightly belated update: Oddly, that 7A28-7170 Honda F1 attracted no bids @ 10000 Yen and went unsold.  It was subsequently re-listed a couple of days later, retaining the same YJ listing number, now with a reduced opening bid price of only 8000 Yen.

http://page14.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/s482672974

The re-listed auction ended yesterday lunchtime (UK time) with the 7A28-7170 selling for 11,100 Yen after 9 bids by two bidders:

Intriguingly there appear to be two 7A28-7170 Honda F1's on Yahoo Japan at the moment, both offered by the same seller.

The first one is obviously a 'normal' 7A28-7160 with the polished case / bezel and black upper dial / subdials.

The second one appears to be a 7A28-7170 'limited edition' with the silver dial and bead-blasted case, but ....

http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b277172279

Google translates the Japanese seller's description as follows:

Seiko 7A28-7170 Honda F1 rare rare chronograph working race speed master chrono HONDA Seiko ①

Collection adjustment because of exhibition.

I do not know when the battery will run out.

Because it is second - hand, there are scratches etc associated with use.

I would be pleased if you acknowledge it based on the above.

Those who are seeking beautiful goods and finished goods should refrain from bidding you like thank you.

Moreover, I need your help by junk treatment without a no claim, returned goods.

Please contact me after dealing successfully in deal Navi (beta version). Bidding from people with bad evaluations, those with anxiety about past transactions are canceled without prior notice.

Since enclosure is not possible, I need your help well.

Shipping will be only letter pack light 360.

Packing will be simple with bubble wrap.

Shipping will be from Fukuoka prefecture.

When there is no connection within 24 hours after it makes a successful bid, I will cancel the successful bid by "deletion of successful bidder convenience".

Also, please make payment and easy settlement procedure within 3 days (excluding weekends and holidays) from the bid date.

Even if payment and settlement procedures are not made within 3 days (except Saturdays, Sundays and holidays), the cancellation of the successful bid by "Delete of successful bidder convenience".

Although I am sorry truly, please bid it only for those who can acknowledge it.

Those who are seeking beautiful goods and finished goods should refrain from bidding you like thank you.

Moreover, I need your help by junk treatment without a no claim, returned goods.

What's different about this particular 7A28-7170 is that it's missing the '1992' printing from the upper dial plate and also the 10th Anniversary 'limited edition' engraving from the 12 o'clock side of the watch case. So is this yet another variation on the 7A28 Honda F1 theme - or another cobbled together Franken ? 

I probably didn't watch those two 7A28 Honda F1 listings as closely as I should. I did notice that one of the listings ended a couple of days before the other. I'd wrongly assumed that was because someone had hit the 'Buy-it-Now' button. But seems not. 

Checking the YJ ended auction results (a few days late, admittedly) reveals they were scheduled to end two days apart. 

http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b277172279

http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e243452152

The 'limited edition' 7A28-7170 appears to have made only 12,506 Yen after 11 bids, whereas the 'standard' 7A28-7160 offered by the same seller did a little better, making 14,189 Yen after 8 bids. So perhaps concensus decided that it was a wrong un (rather than another rare variant) after all. 

This has probably already been 'done to death', with all the previous examples spotted on Yahoo Japan, but I thought I'd briefly give this one a quick mention. A 7A28-7170 Honda F-1 was listed on eBay yesterday evening by a Croatian eBay seller, with an opening bid price of $499. It's not the best of examples cosmetically, but the seller's description helps clarify something I was previously dubious about. There were evidently 2 versions of 7A28-7170 produced. As the seller states, his example has the silver-grey dial, but is missing the '1992' printing on the upper plate. He omits to mention that it also doesn't have the commemorative 'Limited Edition number' engraving on the 12 o'clock lug. Like most other examples seen, this 7A28-7170 also has a 89xxxx case-back serial number.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/163222420612

7A28-7170 HONDA

In offer one of the rarest 7a28 Seiko models.

There are 3 models that looks similar. 1 of them is 7160 that have black dials and polished case, you can find it sometimes on ebay. The 7A28-7160 is thought to have been issued in 1988 to commemorate Honda engine’s return to F1 auto racing.

Other 2 models are 7170. Difference is that one of them have year 1992 on dial and other is without it. This one in offer is without 1992 numbers on dial. Both of this models are almost impossible to find.

The dial has Honda and the Honda logo on a light coloured background. All the sub-registers are white, and minute sub-registers have red hands, together with the sweep second hand.

Watch service is made August 2018 and everything working. Chrono is reseting on 0 ofc.

There are signs of usage on watch. please check pictures! bracelet and glass have some sings of wear also. Dial is in very good condition.

Bracelet is original and size is apx 18cm wrist size.

It is just watch for sale. there is no box or papers included

Please check all pictures, and enjoy.

Talk about making a slightly belated update - a mere 3 months after the event. The Croatian eBay seller ended his listing for that 7A28-7170 Honda F-1 at the end of August, because of an error in the listing. Presumably the error was in the opening bid price. Who knows ? 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/163222420612

I obviously hadn't added it to my eBay watching page, so I've no idea whether he subsequently re-listed and sold it later. Nor any way of telling from his eBay sales feedback either, because it's private. In fact, it was only because I came to make my next post that I discovered my earlier minor oversight.

I don't have time (nor the inclination) to run searches on '7A28' on Yahoo Japan more than once per week - usually at weekends. Not sure what prompted me, but I just happened to earlier today - and spotted another 7A28-7170 Honda F-1, that was listed yesterday, in a 'Junk' job lot pairing, with a JDM 7A28-7040. It's a 5-day auction, with an opening bid price of only 100 Yen. The YJ seller deviceeyes25 is either a dealer or possibly a collector having a clearout, because he's listed a few similar 7A28 job lots lately.

http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/u243926949

Google translates the relevant parts of the Japanese seller's description as follows:

■ Cal. Like Speedmaster with 7A28 Cal. We will send 2 Honda chronographs with 7 A 28 together.

■ Since neither will be junk treatment with difficulty, please give me a bid after paying attention.

■ Both of them got exchange of batteries at a watch shop I knew, but please use it as part removal as it is difficult to operate as below.

■ After replacing the battery, the details are as follows, the inside of () means serial no.

1. F-1 GRAND-PRIX RACING TEAM / 7 A 28 - 7170 (925325)

* Clock function · · · operating normally.

* Stopwatch hands · · · immovable. Even if you start it you will not move from 0 position simply by slightly moving left and right.

* 5/100 second total · · · immovable. If you look closely it will go to the direction you tilted if you tilt with a feeling that the needle is shaking little by little. It may be that the needle itself has looseness.

* 30 minutes totalizer · · · Normal. For now, resetting returns to the 0 position.

* Glass & · Dial · · · Dome glass has scratches, but there is no effect on visibility. Burns and stains etc are not seen in the dial.

* Genuine Bracelet ... The circumference of the arm is about 18 cm strong and is said to be strong. There is not much coma.

* Although it will be a scratch from the time of acquisition, scratches that seem to be caused by opener are conspicuous in the case back and its vicinity.

■ The above is the thing confirmed about the operation at the time of exhibition to the last, so there are times when either function becomes immovable by the time of the end.

■ Although it seems to be bad, since it will be junk treatment with difficulties for both of them, please observe no claim no return after a successful bid.

■ Kuroneko takkyubin (home delivery service) prepayment 60 size .. shipping. We limit.

■ Please bear uniform shipping fee of 750 yen. Only when we can confirm payment by 15:00, we will ship within the same day.

■ Please be sure to inform the newer from the question column before bidding.

■ When there is a cancellation history and the newer one recently bid without contact, we will cancel without prior notice for trouble prevention.

■ Although it is actually selfish, please bid only for those who can get contact within 48 hours from the end.

■ Because I can not make a prompt decision, please keep in touch with the end.

I strongly suspect part of the chrono's functionality issues may be caused by the bent and deflected centre seconds finger tension spring. I make absolutely no promises that I'll remember to come back and update this thread in 4 days time.