Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers

Seiko7A38 at September 4, 2014 at 6:57 AM

Indeed, researching Henri Samuel is logically the next direction to follow. Having been at the helm of FRED until 1996, no doubt he holds all the answers. However, getting in contact with him may be another thing altogether. But I may have found something else.

In their June 1992 Nº 7 'Summer Special' issue, La Revue Des Montres - a French watch magazine, published an article about him.

http://www.journaux-collection.com/fiche.php?id=769813 

It's entitled: Henri Samuel - Du Côté de Chez Fred and starts on page 96  and possibly runs for 4 pages.

If any readers had clicked on the link included in my previous post, you'll have seen I'd actually found a copy of La Revue Des Montres issue Nº 7. Except I wasn't about to pay 20 Euros (plus presumably postage on top) for a secondhand copy of a 25-year old French magazine on the off-chance that it might contain what I was looking for. So on Friday, I'd emailed Journaux-Collection.com (in French) explaining that before I committed to buy the magazine, I'd like to know if there was a photo of a Fred Force 10 day / date chronograph included in that article (attaching a photo of the ex-eBay dial). Further emails bounced back and forward. This was their third reply:

L’article correspond à cette montre et commence à la page 96 celui-ci est disponible en ligne avec ce lien (same link I'd already seen). 

Late this morning, in sheer frustration, I caved in and phoned them. Now bearing in mind that my spoken French is a bit rusty and that the gentleman I talked to spoke little English, what I believe we established is: that the article on Henri Samuel is only 3 pages long; there are several mentions of 'Fred Force 10' and a photo of a watch is included in that article - but not the one I'm looking for. 

But I don't give up that easily .... 

I'd already sussed that La Revue Des Montres was a publication of Jalou Media Group http://www.editionsjalou.com/ ....

and that they had a pretty comprehensive online archive of most of their magazines: http://patrimoine.editionsjalou.com/

So naturally had I been able to, I'd have checked out their archive copy of La Revue Des Montres issue Nº 7 1992 for myself ....

Unfortunately, Éditions Jalou's '1990's archive for La Revue Des Montres only covers 1999:

http://patrimoine.editionsjalou.com/la-revue-des-montres-archivesp-20-1990.html

But once again, googling Henri Samuel (+ Joaillier) accidentally pointed me in the right direction. 

Don't ask me, but somehow I arrived here: 

http://patrimoine.editionsjalou.com/lofficiel-hommes-numero_69-page_110-detailp-22-1023-110.html

It's an article about Golf (handicaps) in another Éditions Jalou publication - L'officiel Hommes - basically a men's fashion magazine.

Henri Samuel is pictured top left (page 110). Now I have absolutely NO interest in Golf whatsoever (better things to do with my time).

But if you click on the link I posted above and scroll through the pages (by clicking on the left or right page) starting on page 34, you'll find an 8-page article on luxury watches, including a solid 18ct gold Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74 (on a leather strap) on page 41.

There's also a full page black and white FRED advert for their 'La Tigresse' range of watches on page 20 (which I'd seen before).

So you can guess what came next - I spent a couple of leisurely hours browsing through their 1988 and 1989 archives. 

http://patrimoine.editionsjalou.com/lofficiel-hommes-archivesa-22-1988.html

http://patrimoine.editionsjalou.com/lofficiel-hommes-archivesa-22-1989.html

To save you doing the same, unless you happen to have time to kill, here's a link to L'officiel Hommes issue Nº 75 of 1989:

http://patrimoine.editionsjalou.com/lofficiel-hommes-numero_75-1989-detail-22-1029.html

.... and there, on page 41 in a similar 11-page watch article is where I finally found an online image of the Fred Force 10 '7A38'. 

http://patrimoine.editionsjalou.com/lofficiel-hommes-numero_75-page_40-detailp-22-1029-40.html

The text squeezed into the top R.H. corner of page 41 reads: De haute en bas, le temps s'écoule inexorablement ....

Chrono Force 10 en acier et or 18 carats, mouvement à quartz, rattrapante 5/100e de second, jour, date, étanche à 50 metres ....

Belated Edit: Added Hi-res image of page 41 only (Éditions Jalou's original 'zoom' .jpg file measures 1493 x 2000 pixels / 411KB):

So, having wasted hours upon hours researching this watch, in my efforts to find any image of it, what's the conclusion ? 

Exactly the same damning verdict that I passed on its 1988 Fred Force 10 stablemate .... Pretty or tasteful it ain't !  

Indeed, the 18ct faux rivet / stainless wire rope bezel design is virtually identical - just scaled up. That the Fred Force 10 '7A38' (or at least the version I've found), came on a leather strap, as opposed to a stainless wire rope bracelet, is absolutely no surprise to me. 

That screen print from the YouTube video of Ari Vatanen, wearing his prototype Fred Force 10 '7A38' on the 1988 Paris Dakar might not be the clearest, but I'd studied the footage (full screen, freeze frame) and already primed myself to expect such a leather strap.

But the best bit (as far as I was concerned) came from my 'rambling musings' post on the previous page - about the Tachymetre ring:

What if, when it's fitted in the Fred Force 10 '7A38', all you could see through the crystal was the inner part which I've ringed in red ....

.... and the rest of it was actually hidden under the bezel ? 

Just like it turned out to be. 

Don't think I was too far out in my choice of wording for the topic title, either. 

FRED Force 10 - another French Fashion Faux Pas, perhaps ?

To quote Julia Roberts from 'Pretty Woman' .... Big mistake. Big. Huge.

Seiko7A38 at August 9, 2014 at 6:53 AM

My frustration continues unabated.

Earlier in the week, I'd sent Ari Vatanen a polite 'chaser' email (asking again if he could kindly supply some photos of his Fred '7A38').

I'd noticed from his Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/VatanenAri that on 27th July, he'd written:

Last Sunday, I was lucky enough to follow the Gap-Nimes étape with the Tour de France boss, Christian Prudhomme, my pal from Dakar.

So I'd assumed that he was back home (Ari has a farmhouse and winery in the south of France). Apparently not.  He wrote back:

It is not that easy. I'm in Finland for the summer and the watch is in France.

You need to be patient...

Kind regards,

Ari.

But patience isn't a virtue that I'm known for.  I suspect now that he won't be back home until the grape harvest in mid-September.

Having found an image of the Fred '7A38' in that 1989 archived copy of L'officiel Hommes, my frustration has somewhat abated. 

However, I'll admit I'm still rather disappointed by the lack of response (in the form of photos) from prototype owner Ari Vatanen. 

Especially remembering my correspondence with French astronaut Michel Tognini last year; how helpful and obliging he'd been. 

It's 3 months to the day since I first contacted Ari Vatanen. Summer (in Finland) is most definitely over. I asked a Finnish work colleage yesterday - they're already seeing early morning frosts. Ari hasn't updated his Facebook page since that last entry on 27th July. He's obviously pre-occupied dabbling in motorsport politics:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/11073590.html

Jean Todt ally Ari Vatanen calls for Russian Grand Prix to be cancelled over Ukraine incursion

FIA president's friend and colleague has publicly told Bernie Ecclestone, F1's and the teams' owners to scrap the race over 'unprecedented' actions of Vladimir Putin ....

Stalking horse: Ari Vatanen, a close ally of FIA president Jean Todt, says the Russian GP should be cancelled Photo: GETTY IMAGES

So perhaps someone else might fancy dropping him an email. Hint. 

After disappearing from social media for a couple of months, yesterday evening Ari Vatanen finally updated his Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/VatanenAri

Bonsoir! My apologies - I'm just hopeless with social media (and with many other things...). One of the highlights of life in France ....

Yes, I think we've gleaned that much, Ari. 

As readers may have gathered from the sarcastic tone of some of my previous posts, I'd almost given up hope on Ari Vatanen.

Then, this afternoon, better late than never, I received an email from him, with three photos of his Fred Force 10 '7A38' attached. 

Hi from Provence!

I receive all kinds of messages but you go a step further by bombarding me simultaneously from the UK and Finland...

I should be now with my family instead of writing watch descriptions but here we go!

I was a Fred 'Force 10' ambassadeur a long time ago and the watch is used every now and then by my wife Rita.

Normally she does not bump into another lady wearing the same watch. 

In any case most of the ladies wear far too small watches...

The diameter is 37-38mm, the weight is 88 gr (and it is not for sale).

I was also promoting Force 10 sunglasses (do not ask for a photo, I must have lost them) in Paris-Dakar rally.

I remember wearing them once proudly at the finish line of the long special stage in front of the photographers.

Only afterwards I realised that the other lens had come off....

Fred took me to Basel Watch Fair in the late eighties and ever since I have had a very high respect and admiration for watch making. 

I just remind you Paul that the best watches are made by a Finn, Kari Voutilainen... 

Have fun with your hobby - and drive carefully!

Kind regards,

Ari Vatanen

So, with the help of a Finnish forum member - thanks, Mikko  having eventually coerced Ari Vatanen into sending me these three photos (if you look at the filenames / original file sizes, he must have put some effort into taking them) what more have I learned ?  Apart from 'Patience is a virtue' (if not one of mine) .... not a lot actually. 

Firstly not to make assumptions based on 25 year-old grainy footage on YouTube - even zooming in on freeze frame.

Ari never did actually confirm in any of his earlier messages that the watch he was wearing on the 1988 Paris Dakar was this one.

Although the version shown in the 1989 L'officiel Hommes article has a leather strap fitted, Ari's watch is on the classic 'Force 10' stainless braided wire bracelet, which I'd previously seen on that other 1988 non-chrono' Force 10 model. A nice touch - and quite possibly pure coincidence, but this bracelet has 10 strands of braided wire per side (compared to only 9 strands of that other).

Again, that French magazine image partly confused me into believing the hands were painted black, whereas in Ari's head-on photo it now appears they are actually gold plated. As I'd already surmised, the watch case design is very much a case of 'form over function'; the braiding around the circumference certainly wouldn't make for easy or positive chronograph operation. The bezel on Ari's watch does a good job of hiding the six cut-outs around the perimeter of the Tachymetre ring, so I'm still none the wiser.

The biggest disappointment for me was the case-back.

I was hoping there would be a model number stamped on it. There isn't one.

Like other French made Fred Force 10's (of more anon) the engravings simply read:

ETANCHE A 5 METRES; FABRIQUE EN FRANCE, the FRED logo © F 10 and a 5-digit serial number beginning 88xxx.

I'm going to re-order the last couple of posts  - not only to group the most recent 'Ari Vatanen' posts together, but ....

.... in an attempt to produce a somewhat postscript. Hopefully it will make more sense when I've finished writing it up.

Originally posted by myself on September 29, 2014 at 6:30 PM:

I'm still running searches on eBay, LeBonCoin, etc. just in case (in the extremely unlikely event) a Fred '7A38' should ever turn up on there. Nothing like it, so far, needless to say. However one of my searches did find this FRED watch / bracelet box listed yesterday by a US seller:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161435127172

For your consideration: 

An Exquisite FRED (PARIS) Watch or Bracelet Box 

Crafted for the "Force 10" Jewelry Collection

This modern style box comes in a beautiful Navy Blue leather finish 

It features a Golden trim around the edges 

It opens up to reveal a watch or bracelet holder resting on a padded felt interior 

It is marked "Fred - Paris" on the inside 

It is marked "Fred Joaillier - Collection Force 10" on the outer lid 

It measures 2 1/8" High x 4" Square 

It weighs: 4 3/4 Ounces 

It is in Excellent, Barely Used, Vintage Condition 

What a lovely, genuine and authentic Collectible /Gift Box

It is ideal for safe keeping of your FRED Jewels! 

Nice indeed, perhaps, if you had a FRED Force 10 '7A38' to keep inside it - but not for me at $79, thank you very much. 

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I've since carried on running searches on eBay and LeBonCoin on 'Fred Force 10' in the vain hope of eventually spotting a '7A38' ....

In doing so, I've learned that the above Fred presentation box, listed by the US eBay seller, described as Watch or Bracelet Box is actually meant for a Force 10 bracelet - even though it's deep enough to take a watch. I'd seen a couple more, with Force 10 bracelets (which look a little lost in them) listed on LeBonCoin. Then I came across a Force 10 ladies watch on there - dingy photos, but it's pretty obvious that the pukka Fred Force 10 watch box is considerably larger than the bracelet box and opens as a 'double clamshell':

Last weekend, a would-be UK seller listed a similar-looking men's moonphase calendar Fred Force 10 watch on eBay.

It went unsold: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390957903910 - and has just been re-listed: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390963683280

It's allegedly NOS, complete with the same larger clamshell presentation box. The seller has included more photos besides these few:

Points of interest: it's SWISS MADE. I don't recognise the calibre from the unusal sub-dial layout, but I think it's safe to assume it's an obscure off-the-shelf ETA quartz movement. Unlike the French made Fred Force 10 watches, this one has a model number engraved at the bottom of the case-back. Above that, though almost obscured by reflection, there's a similar 5-digit serial number F10 24919.

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This is another Fred Force 10 which was listed on eBay in France last week, that I'd added to my eBay watching page out of interest. It's very similar (if not identical) to the 1988 model I'd found previously, but with a champagne coloured dial. The auction ended earlier this morning @ 11:30, with some late bids and a last second snipe pushing the final price up to a respectable 351 Euros:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271647253759

Apart from my own interest in gauging what any of these very dated 1980's Fred Force 10 Fashion Faux Pas might be worth ....

The seller's photos include some details of the (9 strand) braided wire bracelet and clasp not clearly visible in Ari Vatanen's photos.

The search continues ....

I'm still running searches on eBay, LeBonCoin, etc. just in case (in the extremely unlikely event) a Fred '7A38' should ever turn up on there. Nothing like it, so far ....

But I'm getting closer.

This Fred quartz chronograph, certainly the nearest thing to a 7Axx I've found so far, was listed on LeBonCoin yesterday evening:

http://www.leboncoin.fr/montres_bijoux/732318436.htm?ca=1_s

Montre fred modele "chrono aventure"

Pierre - Mise en ligne le 13 novembre à 21:22.

Prix : 550 €

Ville : Paris

Code postal : 75001 

Description :

Je vends une montre homme acheté dans les années 90 chez FRED au 6 rue Royale à PARIS 8ème, bracelet en cuir noir, dans son écrin d'origine.

Modèle chrono aventure numéroté

Le chrono ne fonctionne pas

Modèle très rare et introuvable!

Montre Fred de collection

No cartier, Boucheron, Hermès, Baume et mercier.

D'autres photos, et lunettes/ montres sont disponibles

Whether this is a pukka Fred 7A28 (powered presumably by a Shimauchi V905 re-branded movement) or another of those wannabe clones which should more correctly belong in this thread in another section - I'm undecided at the moment. When I tried zooming in on the seller's small primary image the sub-dial markings disappeared into a blur. Funnily enough, it bears a resemblence to this Yema.

That small image (saved from an eBay listing in March 2011) comes from my fourth post in that other thread, where I wrote:

It's a (French-made) Yema, but typically Italian in style - very ornate, with it's gold-tone fluted case and Mother of Pearl inlay sub-dials.

My first thoughts were that it was another N7 (7A28 equivalent), but closer examination (of other larger photos) proved otherwise. Again, the minute sub-dial reads to 60 (not 30), and at the bottom of the dial is printed not 'FRANCE' as you'd normally expect to find on the bottom of a Yema N7 or N8 dial, but 'SWISS MADE'. So I can only assume it must be powered by an ETA quartz movement.

Note that the Fred's case-back includes a stamping Y127 - not one I can ever remember having seen before; certainly never on a Yema N7 (7A28) case-back. But Yema 7T32 case-backs are frequently stamped Y182. Possibly more evidence of the Fred / C.G.H. connection - remains to be seen. The seller's description states that other photos are available, so I'll drop him a message presently.

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Belated Edit: To my bemusement, in a subsequent google search I found another FRED quartz chronograph on a French auction link website. It was Lot # 110 in a Drouot auction, held in Paris on 25th October 2014. No idea what it may have sold for, but the estimate was 300 - 400 Euros.

http://www.yvelines-encheres.com/html/fiche.jsp?id=4350052

The watch is of course based on the Citizen / Miyota Cal. 35xx - specifically a 3510.

Time for a long overdue update to this thread - albeit one with a rather disappointing outcome. 

Back in June 2014, on page one of this thread, when I was still looking for a(ny) photo of a complete Fred Force 10 '7A38', I wrote:

Short of a watch miraculously turning up on eBay or LeBonCoin, probably the best chance of getting an idea of what it looked like ....

Quite honestly, I never really ever expected one to turn up on eBay. But I kept on running searches every now and then, just in case.

To my amazement, one was listed on eBay by an Italian seller on Thursday evening, as a 5-day no reserve auction, with an opening bid of 0.01 Euros:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262374672739

Vendo bellissimo orologio di lusso marca FRED-modello FORCE 10 realizato in oro massiccio titolo 750-18kt e acciaio come parte della cassa e fondello. I pulsanti,corona, la ghiera sopra, le anse e la fibbia sono in oro massiccio 18kt. Il orologio si trova in condizioni molto belle, tranne un lieve graffio sul vetro poco visibile, che volendo si puo anche togliere. I punzoni del oro 750 sono presenti sulle anse e la fibbia come anche da foto. Il crono e tutto originale 100x100 ed e funzionante completamente in tutto per tutto. Il crono viene associato al grande evento di PARIS DAKAR, e come crono e molto particolare in quanto nonostante il suo valore come orologio monta un meccanismo a pila SEIKO 7A38A che pero anche se a quarzo monta ben 15 rubini ed e di altissima precisione. La sua pila e nuova appena messa. Cinturino in pelle suo originale, tenuto molto bene. Il diametro della cassa e di circa 38,5 mm, e la misura per il verticale da ansa ad ansa e di circa 50 mm. Io non lo mai smontato ma penso soltanto di oro ci sono circa 15-20 grammi. Il orologio e tenuto molto bene ed e tutto funzionante. Viene venduto da come descritto e da come presentato nelle foto, ma se avete qualche domanda non esitate a chiedere, e non dimenticate di guardare le mie altre inserzioni.Grazie! Auguro buon asta a tutti!! IL VALORE DI QUESTO OROLOGIO RAGGIRA SUI 3-4000 EURO!!!

It was the same version with the ribbed tan leather strap, as per the illustration in L'officiel Hommes magazine, issue Nº 75 of 1989.

Now I may have written unkind things about it, specifically: Pretty or tasteful it ain't !   - but that didn't stop me wanting it.

However, after my initial euphoria at finding it had subsided, I started looking a bit closer at the eBay seller's photos ....

Having studied them, there were a couple of statements in their description which didn't exactly ring true. 

Il crono e tutto originale 100x100 ed e funzionante completamente in tutto per tutto. - which Google translates as:

The chrono and completely original 100x100 and up and running completely around for everything.

And: Io non lo mai smontato .... which translates as: I never dismantled ....

The first thing I noticed was the day window, which was halfway through the changeover between languages at 10 to 6 ! 

My first thought was that the fragile plastic day / date changeover wheel had been broken by some clumsy oaf (see: this thread).

Where I wrote:

Whenever I've observed them, the day / date changeover sequence of my 7A38's goes as follows:

11:00 PM Date wheel starts to move and is usually completed by 00:30 AM (the following day). 01:00 AM (previous) Day starts to move. By 01:30 AM changed to 'alternate' language; by 02:30 AM the Day changeover is complete.

So I emailed the seller and asked him outright whether it was working. He replied:

l orologio e perfetto!! nelle foto stava per cambiare la data tutto qua! which Google translates as:

The clock is perfect !! In photographs he was changing the date that's all!

Yeah, right ! 

My attention then turned to the sub-dial hands. Comparing this watch with the magazine photo and Ari Vatanen's, the uppermost two looked all wrong. They're too long, too thick and have black painted pointers. Indeed they look just like Seiko p/n 04E14AL sub-dial hands used on umpteen 7A38 models. Yet the much slimmer gold plated constant seconds hand appeared to be original and correct. Looking closely at the the first two photos, it appears that the incorrect hand on the 1/10s sub-dial has also been badly fitted; its boss pressed down unevenly and too far - so that it's almost touching the surface of the dial.

Then of course there's that Seiko 7A38(A) movement. Surely if this watch was (even partly) manufactured by C.G.H. for Fred (as I've already proven), it would have had a Shimauchi Ltd V906 re-branded movement not a Seiko. The more I thought about it, the more I became convinced someone had replaced the movement - from a donor Seiko 7A38. That might explain couple of things: such as whichever incompetent had done the work had set the hour and minute hands without thinking about day / date changeover times - hence why the day was still changing at 10 to 6.  Those slender Fred sub-dial hands look delicate - so could easily be damaged when pulled (or clumsily replaced). Two obviously got ruined, so were conveniently replaced by two from the 7A38 donor.

That said, 'wrong un' or not, I was still definitely interested and continued to bid against the other parties. From memory, there were 5 other bidders besides myself; by around 10:00am on Friday, I was currently the high bidder at 58 Euros after something like 14 bids.

Then around 10:30 yesterday morning this appeared in my email inbox ! 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262374672739

Realizing immediately what must have happened, as all too often does in such situations - presumably some unscrupulous b*st*rd had made a 'back door' offer, I frantically messaged the seller. He replied:

Non e stato venduto! Le interessa quanto offre lei? which translates as: It has not been sold. If interested, how much do you offer ?

Followed soon after by:

Si com'è il mio personale non sono pronto a venderlo. Lo venderei solo per la cifra giusta... lei quanto offre ??? which translates as:

It is how my staff are not ready to sell it. I would sell for just the right amount... he offers what ???

Evidently the seller, seeing there was interest, appeared to have deliberately pulled the auction to solicit offers outside eBay. 

I really didn't want to get involved in this kind of 'Dutch auction' - as eBay themselves warn against in their cancellation notice.

That said, I didn't want to let it get away either. So I made the seller a 4-figure offer (as much as the maximum I'd planned to bid) ....

To mis-quote Richard Gere from the Pretty Woman shopping scene: We are talking about spending an obscene amount of money.

Particularly on what is, in reality, a secondhand re-branded (albeit blinged up with 18ct gold) Seiko 7A38 of dubious desirability.

Five minutes later I received a reply:

Mi hanno offerto di piu sinceramente... which translates as: They offered me more sincerely ...

By an odd coincidence, yesterday I won an eBay auction for another non-Seiko 7A38 from that same Italian eBay seller. Having seen what he'd done with that listing for the 'messed about with' Fred Force 10, back in April and checked some of his other recent 'ended' auction listings, it was clear that he uses those tactics fairly regularly. So I was half expecting him to pull the listing. But thankfully he didn't this time and I won it for a very reasonable price (of more anon - in another thread).

Seeing his username and recognizing it from this thread, reminded me that I hadn't actively searched eBay on Fred Force 10 for quite some time. So I quickly ran a couple. By an amazing coincidence, this Fred Force 10 'Ladies' 18K watch was listed by a US eBay seller only a couple of hours ago.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252549162485

The description simply reads:

GENUINE BROWN LEATHER BAND

SHOWS DATE AND DAY

PURE LUXURY

Despite the poor quality grainy photos, this example appears to have the full set of original very slender sub-dial hands. The brown leather strap is obviously a cheap replacement. Oh, Yes and then there's the Buy-it-Now price of $8000 !! 

It's kind of ironic how a watch I once almost callously dismissed as (not) being: Pretty or tasteful it ain't ! became something of a ‘Grail’ for me over the years. Admittedly, more for its 'rarity factor' than its dubious aesthetic qualities. I am of course, referring to the borderline fugly FRED Force 10 ‘7A38’. I suspect a few readers will have already spotted there was one listed on eBay recently, by a US eBay seller. It was a 10-day no reserve auction, which started with a low opening bid price of $9.99, late on the evening of 12th September. The watch came fitted with the archetypal 10-strand wire rope bracelet - same as Ari Vatanen's watch.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293225634301

Obviously, not wanting to draw unneccessary attention to it, I purposely delayed posting about it here, until the auction had ended. Who did I think was I kidding ? The auction received over 480 views during the 10-day listing period and had two dozen watchers at one point. It ended last night, after 38 bids in a bloody 3-way shoot-out, with the bidding rocketing from $710 to a final selling price of $1900 in the last 30 seconds.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/293225634301

Some 7 years or so ago, I naïvely wrote in another thread in this forum section:

The Cartier Ferrari Formula quartz chronographs were, back in the day, without question the most expensive of the re-branded 7A38's.

Wrong ! That was of course, long before I discovered the Fred Force 10 '7A38'. 

I have a confession to make.  'Twas I who paid 'silly money' for that Fred Force 10, which sold on eBay just over a week ago. The 'red mist' came down, I hate to admit far worse than it ever has done in the past, when buying any Cartier Ferrari Formula. I absolutely had to have it. A grail is a grail and all that.

Having paid more than I really wanted to, in winning the auction, I looked at ways of keeping the cost of shipping to UK down - and enlisted the help of my ever-faithful US forwarding agent, forum member 'Paul in Vegas' to act as 'middle man'. 

I was concerned about a couple of things - one being the size of the watch's wire rope bracelet. (The US eBay seller had written in their description: The band is about 7" in circumference when closed and 3/4" wide.) So I asked Paul if he'd take a couple of wrist shots, to give me some idea in advance - he kindly obliged.

That second side-on shot re-assured me that I shouldn't have a problem. 

But not content with that, Paul went through the whole 'unboxing routine' thing and sent me about 2 dozen more photos of the watch !!   Here's about half of them:

Thanks once again, all the same, Paul. 

After some consternation at the length of time it appeared to have spent in Royal Mail's Langley HWDC depot (UK Customs clearing hub) yesterday morning, Paul's slightly smaller package containing the FRED Force 10 '7A38' was delivered safely this morning, without incurring any charges, by not one, but two lady posties ! 

As Paul had already done 'the unboxing routine', there wasn't much point in my duplicating his efforts. It's been chucking it down with rain most of today in the UK, but I managed to rattle off a couple of wrist shots in between the showers. Here's another slightly different shot to the couple I posted in the WRUW thread earlier.

I guess all that remains, for the time being, is for me to 're-box' it. 

You may recall, that higher up the page, almost 5 years ago, to the day, I wrote:

Originally posted by myself on September 29, 2014 at 6:30 PM:

I'm still running searches on eBay, LeBonCoin, etc. just in case (in the extremely unlikely event) a Fred '7A38' should ever turn up on there. Nothing like it, so far, needless to say. However one of my searches did find this FRED watch / bracelet box listed yesterday by a US seller:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161435127172

Nice indeed, perhaps, if you had a FRED Force 10 '7A38' to keep inside it - but not for me at $79, thank you very much.

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Technically I lied. I did buy it, just in case I ever found a FRED Force 10.

The right or wrong FRED watch box, it might be, but the watch fits very nicely. 

Ironically, at the same time that the 10-day auction listing for the FRED Force 10 was live on eBay in the States, a French eBay seller listed another of those FRED watch / bracelet presentation boxes - not quite identical, in that the box top printing differed slightly (PARIS versus Joaillier, no collection, etc.):

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264468800824

FRED FORCE 10 : VINTAGE BOITE ECRIN Box POUR BRACELET BIJOUX

It was rather cheaper than the one I'd bought on the off-chance 5 years earlier.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264468800824

Here's how I've seen that box used a few times before, with a bracelet (and ring). This 'Newport' variant of the Force 10 bracelet sold on Vinted a few months ago:

http://www.vinted.lu/hommes/bracelets/210392632-bracelet-bague-fred

But I had also seen it used as a watch presentation box (model Force 10 'Alize').

Anyway, enough about FRED presentation boxes (well almost) because ....

I have another confession to make. Not content with one, I've just splashed out and bought myself another FRED Force 10 7A38.

By funny coincidence it was listed on Monday evening, by an Italian eBay seller, as a 7-day auction, with a somewhat over-optimistic opening bid price of 1700 Euros, or the option to make an offer. Unfortunately, the Italian seller had set up the listing as 'Posts to Italy' (only), so technically I couldn't make him an offer via eBay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153665821541

!!!!!!!!!!! RARISSIMO ED INTROVABILE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Orologio marca FRED Modello CRONO FORCE 10 acquistato a MONTECARLO.

In acciaio e oro massiccio 18 Kt 750 con regolari punzoni come mostrato in Foto.

Orologio rarissimo INTROVABILE in perfette condizioni estetiche e di funzionamento.

Come forma di pagamento si accetta solo BONIFICO BANCARIO.

LE FOTO PUBBLICATE IN QUESTO ANNUNCIO FANNO PARTE INTEGRANTE DELLA DESCRIZIONE.

Questa e` una vendita tra privati e come tale il venditore non fornisce nessuna garanzia sull`oggetto posto in vendita.

Il venditore non e` in nessun modo responsabile per eventuale danneggiamento o smarrimento dell`oggetto durante il servizio di spedizione.

La formula di vendita applicata e` "visto e piaciuto".

Despite the sellers's claims of having been 'acquired in Monte Carlo' and being in 'perfect aesthetic condition', I recognised the watch instantly, from the first photo. The immediate 'giveaway' being those two incorrect replacement sub-dial hands.

This is of course the same FRED Force 10, on its original ribbed tan leather strap, that I'd frustratedly missed buying, back in April 2016. If you scroll back up the page and check the photos, as I did, you'll see the case-back serial number 88542 also matches. A couple of points to note from the current Italian eBay seller's first photo: if you zoom in on it, the Roman numerals III are shown in the day window (as opposed to the correct alternate French day abbreviation) - a legacy of the Seiko 7A38 donor movement, fitted by the original Italian eBay seller 18hobbyman13. Also, the watch presentation box appears to be the same smaller Force 10 'bracelet' box that I'd unknowingly plumped for - complete with white outer carton. 

Although admittedly something of an extravagance, I decided it would be nice to add the leather strap version to my collection. I checked back through my emails and found the original eBay messages from 18hobbyman13, dating back to 9th April 2016. These gave me a good idea what the current Italian eBay seller might have paid for it. So I contacted 'Tony' and made him what I considered to be a reasonable offer, which he accepted. I paid him this morning using TransferWise and he duly ended the listing as item no longer available.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153665821541

I don't have any qualms about having 'back doored' it. That was, after all, how it was sold last time - and I believe I paid 'Tony' a fair price. Besides, there didn't appear to have been very much interest (compared to the previous FRED Force 10 on eBay in the States). According to WatchCount.com's look-up tool, by this morning, after 36 hours, the listing had received less than 20 views and I was the only watcher.

I collected Tony's package containing my second FRED Force 10 7A38 from the local Post Office this afternoon. Here's a different, slightly less flattering Q&D 'as received' wrist shot to the one I just posted in the WRUW thread:

In most respects, other than the dial, it's not in such good condition as my previous example on the 10-strand wire cable bracelet - but then, based on the previous seller's photos, I'd expected that. Plus I paid rather less for it. The original FRED ribbed tan leather strap is in remarkably well preserved condition, but the 18K gold bezel is a little scuffed. There are also a couple of light scratches on the crystal - more visible in this shot: one of them running horizontally across the FORCE 10 logo. Then there's the anticipated niggling issue of those two non-original (Seiko) chrono' sub-dial hands, that I need to resolve. 

One other thing, for now, that leather strap comes fitted with an 18K gold buckle, with yet another variation of the FRED logo. It's an elongated F with a crown.

I had seen it before, as a plastic 'seal' on those small FRED carrier bags. There was also one of them stuck somewhat randomly, right on the corner and upside down, on the presentation box's white outer carton.

I'll write this watch up in more detail at the weekend, once I've had the time to examine it more closely - and given it a cursory clean. To be continued ....

But first, my ramblings on the subject of Fred serial numbers. Almost 5 years ago, in summing up, based on what I’d gleaned from studying Ari Vatanen’s photos, I wrote:

Originally posted by myself on October 31, 2014 at 11:11 AM:

The biggest disappointment for me was the case-back.

I was hoping there would be a model number stamped on it. There isn't one.

Like other French made Fred Force 10's (of more anon) the engravings simply read:

ETANCHE A 5 METRES; FABRIQUE EN FRANCE, the FRED logo © F 10 and a 5-digit serial number beginning 88xxx.

I’ve tried zooming in on Ari’s third photo, to read the full case-back serial number.

Best I can tell it appears to be 88561. (I’ve since emailed Ari, asking him to clarify.)

If it had been ‘the prototype of the first Fred Force 10 chronograph’, presented to Ari and worn on the 1988 Paris-Dakar, one might have expected it to be # 88001. But remember, I had been initially confused by that grainy YouTube footage where Ari appeared to be wearing a watch fitted with what looked more like a leather strap.

To date, I’ve still only seen a total of 4 Force 10 7A38’s and purchased two of them. The listing for that ridiculously over-priced example on eBay in the States, back in September 2016 didn’t include a photo of the case-back. My two recently acquired examples are serial numbers: 88542 (leather strap) and 88557 (wire bracelet).

So at this stage, that might indicate an inclusive numerical range of only 20 serial numbers, making them potentially quite rare. But that 88xxx serial number range is also shared by at least two other, similar looking, non-chrono’ Force 10 models.

Back in early July 2014, long before I eventually found a photo of a complete FRED Force 10 ‘7A38’, I’d first come across the smaller mans (or unisex) non-chrono’ date only version (on a 9-strand wire bracelet) in a listing on Liveauctioneers.com.

That's the one where I'd unkindly written: Pretty or tasteful it ain't !

That watch had the case-back s/n 88897.

Then there was that champagne coloured dial example, listed on eBay France in the last week of October 2014 (which I'd already mentioned higher up this page):

That one had a case-back serial number of 88693.

It appears that this FRED watch came in at least 3 different dial colours. Here's one with a grey dial that sold in a Catawiki auction in March 2018:

http://auction.catawiki.com/kavels/17281983-fred-force-87612-miehet-1980-1989

That one had a case-back s/n of 87612. Note 87xxx rather than 88xxx.

There is actually another grey dialed example currently listed on eBay in the States.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264494341099

Unfortunately, the seller appears to be both lazy and incompetent. It's already been re-listed a few times since the second week of September. It's not actually serial number 88445 (nor the ladies version), as you'll see presently. What this idiot has done is to clone a previous ended eBay listing, using eBay's 'Sell one like this' feature, but without changing the title or description.  Zooming in on his photo of the case-back, this watch appears to have a case-back serial number of 87970.

What prompted me to compose this lengthy post was that yesterday, while googling, I found another white dialed version in a Drouot auction, which actually took place a few years ago, on 11th April 2015. It was Lot # 235 of Pestel-Debord's sale.

http://www.drouot.com/lot/publicShow/4916164

Although there's no photo of the case-back, the description gives the serial # 87620.

The description also erroneously states:

Mouvement: Calibre remontage quartz FRED / Y102A Swiss.

Erm I don't think so. Cal. Y102A is most definitely not Swiss, but Japanese !

It is of course the (re-branded Seiko) Shiojiri Ltd. Cal. Y102A, as currently available NOS from Dutch eBay seller vacheron_nl for the 'giveaway' price of only $14.99.

There was also what is effectively a scaled-down Ladies version of the same watch (which came on a 7-strand wire bracelet). This white dialed example was listed (and sold) by a US eBay seller in August 2019.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282927761890

It's also still listed here on the vendor's website. That one is case-back s/n 88445.

(Obviously where the current incompetent US eBay seller cloned his listing from.)

Until I started this exercise, specifically looking for Fred 88xxx serial numbers, I'll admit I hadn't taken a great deal of notice of the smaller Ladies version. However, a quick retrospective bout of googling this afternoon turned up something similar(ish).

http://bijoux-anciens-paris.com/site/montre-fred-force-10-occasion-89.html

Judging by the distinct lack of detail on the dial (the FRED logo is also a bit off) I'd strongly suspect the dial has been re-painted; fitted with non-original replacement hands to boot. I've certainly not been able to find another one like it.

(Before it was messed with, it probably looked more like this unmolested example.)

But what grabbed my attention was it's case-back serial number - 89068 !!

So where am I headed with these lengthy musings, you may well be asking.

Well, originally, I'd naïvely assumed that the 88xxx prefixed serial numbers of the FRED Force 10 7A38's indicated they were manufactured in 1988. But now, in the few examples I've cited above, we're also seeing similar, obviously related FRED watches, with the same iconic 'Porthole' design bezel on stainless wire bracelets, with 87xxxx, 88xxx and 89xxx serial numbers.

I don't believe for one moment that these watches were produced over a 3-year period. Nope - they're using the same serial number nomenclature as Seiko, (but only 5 digits rather than 6) where the first digit (8) indicates the year of manufacture (1988) and the second digit indicates the month. Ergo 87xxx is July 1988, 88xxx is August 1988 and 89xxx is September 1988.

Which means the FRED Force 10 7A38's were manufactured in August 1988 - and so makes it extremely unlikely that Ari Vatenen was actually wearing his during the 1988 Paris-Dakar rally. The African leg began on 3rd January 1988 and ended 20 days later. More likely, he could possibly have been wearing it for the 1989 event.

It also means, presuming these watches were produced in a collaborative exercise with Seiko France, that the FRED Force 10's production run pre-dates the start of C.G.H.'s volume production of Yema N8's.

So when I finally got around to unscrewing the case-back of my FRED Force 10 - which is an awkward fiddly job with the bracelet still attached (of more anon), although there wasn't any C.G.H. stamping inside the case-back ....

I was relieved to find that the movement was indeed a Shimauchi Ltd. V906 (as used by C.G.H. on the Yema and Jaz N8's, Kamatz 5xx000's, etc.) as I'd initially predicted, rather than a common-or-garden Seiko 7A38. 

Although it wasn't really even slightly grubby, I also wanted to give the case and bracelet a quick wash in warm soapy water. Normally, the first thing I'd do, before withdrawing the dial / movement from any conventional 7A38, would be to remove the bracelet. I didn't do so with this FRED, which made things a little awkward. You might think that, being constructed of 10 individual wire strands, that the bracelet would be quite flexible. Quite the opposite. 

Four of them are clearly designed to clear the crown tube and pushers during assembly, but the other two @ '60' and '120' ?? 

Note also the single locating dowel (between '75' and '80' on the Tachymetre scale) to facilitate correct alignment with the dial. 

Turns out what I could see on the perimeter of the dial, between 70 and 65 (and also around the 160 mark) on the Tachymeter scale was excess GLUE !! 

As you can see they're fairly delicate. Luckily I didn't lose any as I already need to source matching replacements for the other FRED 7A38 on the leather strap.

Besides the pre-existing damage to the dial, the Tachymeter ring looks slightly the worse for wear, notably the top of the first E of TACHYMETRE, though that may have been hidden under the bezel flange. Fortunately I still have 2 NOS FRED Force 10 dials and Tachymeter rings in my spares stock.

You never know when these things will come in handy. I may have paid 'silly money' in eventually buying myself an example of the complete watch, but bearing in mind I bought these 'on spec' 5 years ago, that was 15 Euros apiece well spent !

Here are the main hands, whose bosses showed tell-tale evidence of having been pulled before. The hour and minute hand are noticeably slimmer than any similar pattern gold plated lumed hands found on any Seiko 7A38 (or Yema N8), but the gold coloured sweep second hand is easily identifiable as the familiar Seiko p/n 13SC06LA (as used on a number of the blingier 7A38's).

Obviously, someone had taken this dial / movement apart at some point in time, for whatever reason. Something I hadn't mentioned before, was that it wasn't the best of timekeepers. When I opened Paul's package, the watch had actually stopped a couple of days earlier (presumably while flying over the Atlantic @ 30,000 feet in the sub-Zero temperatures of the cargo hold). It did start ticking again, after I'd played with the crown and pushers. An overnight session in the airing cupboard seemed to have done the trick, but then a couple of days later, I noticed it had lost 10 minutes. I checked it over the next week and it seemed erratic, sometimes losing 5 minutes overnight, almost, but not every night.

I still hadn't dared try prying the glued-on Tachymeter ring from the dial. It seemed pretty well stuck to it - and I suspect if and when I do, it will result in some damage and paint loss. As I couldn't get at the dial screws, the easiest solution was to build a new dial / movement, which I did by robbing a Shimauchi V906 movement from what was effectively a NOS Kamatz 517000 (but one with flaky silver sub-dials).

Setting the chronograph sub-dial hands was a nightmare. Not only are they extremely delicate, but have quite short mounting collets - which means to get proper purchase on the spigots they needed to be pressed down to within a paper thickness of the dial surface. I suspect they weren't properly pressed on before - hence probably why they all pinged off when I withdrew the dial / movement. 

The NOS dial / movement is on the left; the original, minus its hands on the right. At this stage, before I fitted it, I did actually consider sticking the Tachymeter ring to the dial.  Not with glue, but using a couple of 'Dial Dots' (sliced in half). As it turned out, a dry fit using the Tachymeter ring's single locating dowel and the dial screw heads (which aren't recessed and so also mate with it) was sufficient. I didn't take any more photos during reassembly as my camera's battery had run down flat.

I was just relieved to get it back together in one piece - sans glue and working !